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slimjim
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Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8316
Location: Fort Worth TX
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 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| 44marty wrote: |
| I thought the "paper test" would be a good way to check to confirm my suspicion that I am getting poor powder ignition with uncrimped bullets. |
If your not getting full combustion, you might find powder residue in the barrel. When using Varget in a low pressure load for my old 45-70, I was not getting a complete powder burn and the barrel had unburned powder sticks left in the barrel. You could see them and they would be on the cloth pushing the cleaning rod through. Switched to 4895 and now all the powder is burning. BTW, no crimp, not even neck resizing. |
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stovepipe
Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Pine, Az.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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Who cares- if it works for him- good! But it aint what crimp is for...
Last night at my club meeting we had BBQ tri-tip sammiches au jus with all the fixins, cole slaw, 'tater salad, macaroni salad, apple pie, vanilla and chcolate chip ice cream and lemon tarts. Washed it down with 2 Jak-n-coke's and a Coors. 
Walked in @ 158# and walked out well over 165#. For 5$! *burrrrp!*  |
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44marty
Super Member
Joined: Mar 20, 2009
Posts: 775
Location: Cheshire, MA; USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| slimjim wrote: |
| 44marty wrote: |
| I thought the "paper test" would be a good way to check to confirm my suspicion that I am getting poor powder ignition with uncrimped bullets. |
If your not getting full combustion, you might find powder residue in the barrel. When using Varget in a low pressure load for my old 45-70, I was not getting a complete powder burn and the barrel had unburned powder sticks left in the barrel. You could see them and they would be on the cloth pushing the cleaning rod through. Switched to 4895 and now all the powder is burning. BTW, no crimp, not even neck resizing. |
That's one of the things that has me puzzled, Slim. No traces of unburned powder at all. After getting the big spread with my chrono, it was one of the first things that I checked for. Maybe it's just been a problem with my chronograph all along?? Could be a concentricity problem from my press/dies that causes crimped loads to group very much better?? I haven't spun them under a .0005" indicator yet to check this.
If I weren't broke right now, I would do some more testing. Also, looking for work is much more time consuming than working 40 to 50 hours/week so lots of range time isn't happening right now. Ran out of bullets before I got the Federal primers.
I can't complain, though. The crimped loads with RL-22 are shooting great groups, and I have enough loaded up to last me quite a while.
Geez Stovey. Your post got me so hungry that I had to take a venison roast out of the freezer to thaw.
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stovepipe
Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Pine, Az.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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Just burped up some horseradish from them sammiches....burnt some nose hairs!
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Maqwa
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Joined: Apr 27, 2010
Posts: 77
Location: North Bay Ont. Canada
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stovepipe
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Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Pine, Az.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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Sorry- just keeping it light. Inside joke 'bout my appetite etc...
Topic related- due to weather conditions and work load it may be 8-16 till I get back out to the range for more testing. Sorry my new load results are taking so long gang. Winds have been in excess of 30-50mph at times at local (2 hr drive) spots with triple plus digits...stay tuned.
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Maqwa
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Joined: Apr 27, 2010
Posts: 77
Location: North Bay Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| stovepipe wrote: |
Sorry- just keeping it light. Inside joke 'bout my appetite etc...
Topic related- due to weather conditions and work load it may be 8-16 till I get back out to the range for more testing. Sorry my new load results are taking so long gang. Winds have been in excess of 30-50mph at times at local (2 hr drive) spots with triple plus digits...stay tuned. |
I had some interst since I shoot the 300 Wm too.
Bye |
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stovepipe
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Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Pine, Az.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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Some things are beyond my control. Like work and weather.
If it pleases the Board I'll post my results, pics and what not once they are in.
Appoligies for your loss of interest.
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chambered221
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Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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From the Sierra web site !!!
Regardless of which type of case a crimp is applied, one of the primary reasons for crimping remains the same; to increase neck tension, thereby ensuring proper powder ignition. In many cartridges, such as the .357 and .44 Magnums, large charges of slow-burning powders like H110 and Winchester 296 require firm initial resistance to the bullet’s movement. This building pressure aids in giving complete combustion, enhancing accuracy and shot to shot uniformity.
Here's the link if you want to check it out: Sierra
This isn't the only place I've read this or similar.
One last note...... results differ between closed and open breech.
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slimjim
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Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8316
Location: Fort Worth TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| chambered221 wrote: |
| One last note...... results differ between closed and open breech. |
Well, time to learn some more. Is a closed breech a bolt action rifle and an open breech a revolver? |
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slimjim
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Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8316
Location: Fort Worth TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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44m, I went back and reviewed your posts and have two comments/questions.
First, do you mix your brass or were you using the same manufacturer with each load?
Second, maybe stovy has a good perspective. If you have found the "magic" combination of steps and preceedure that provide accurate results, don't spend time trying to figure out why what didn't work didn't work.
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chambered221
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Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:15 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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The answer is yes but I should have used chamber in place of breech.......sorry !!!
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Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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chambered221
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Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:19 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| slimjim wrote: |
| don't spend time trying to figure out why what didn't work didn't work. |
I don't believe in fixing things that ain't broke.......But !!!
In this situation I would what to figure it out as a learning curve.
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Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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stovepipe
Super Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Pine, Az.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:19 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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| chambered221 wrote: |
From the Sierra web site !!!
Regardless of which type of case a crimp is applied, one of the primary reasons for crimping remains the same; to increase neck tension, thereby ensuring proper powder ignition. In many cartridges, such as the .357 and .44 Magnums, large charges of slow-burning powders like H110 and Winchester 296 require firm initial resistance to the bullet’s movement. This building pressure aids in giving complete combustion, enhancing accuracy and shot to shot uniformity.
Here's the link if you want to check it out: Sierra
This isn't the only place I've read this or similar. |
Fooey- that aint crimps primary job and you know it. I've read otherwise from other makers as well.
It's to hold the bullet from creeping or setting back during recoil. That has everything to do with the opperation of the firearm and more for accuracy when the bullet aint creeped out or set back a 1/4" or more.
You really think a roll crimp, that little tiny bit of soft brass, on a 44m w/ 23gr of H110 is going to make or brake the load/propper combustion? Once the case starts expanding, it's all over- bye-bye bullet.
Again- shottem and 357 etc from single shots w/o any crimp- did just fine.
What if the bullet you are using has no cannelure? Ya just roll crimp it anyways? I don't think so!
If the case is propperly sized- you will only have the maximum neck tension, at best, and no more! You can have less, but not more, as the bullet will size the neck if you make it too small. |
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chambered221
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Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: Lost for good !!!
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: Re: 300 Win Mag loads... |
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Goooood Morning stovey !!! 
Nuttin like a good discussion to start the day.
I've become a firm believer in what I've posted after load developments in my early revolver loading days didn't turn out as expected.
Long story short......the targets and chronograph proved it after I took some advise from others and did a little reading.
I've never used a bullet with out a cannelure in my revolvers so I can't comment on that.
If you think un-crimped cases with slow pistol powder(296 & 110) will work just fine in a open chamber load some up and shoot them as singles in "Boomer".
I'm willing to bet Boomer likes em better crimped. Not saing they won't be respectable just not as good.
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Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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