45 or 50 cal

SilvertipGrizz · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

iowafarmboy wrote:

Thanks SilvertipGrizz, but in this part of Iowa we can only use bow, muzzle loader, or shotgun... only.

I checked the Iowa Regs and they say there are no restrictions on in-line muzzleloaders.
The Savage 10ML-II is an in-line muzzleloader but it will accept smokeless powder loads unlike others.
Savage Arms Muzzleloader

Sorry, I should have read down farther on the thread before posting.
As far as them blowing up, they're build like a tank, if you stick to the recommended loads and use proper loading techniques you should not have any problems.

As for sabots, I use Muzzleload Magnum Products, their sabots are used by Hornady and others, and are recommended by Savage for use in the 10ML-II.
Muzzleload Magnum Products

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

Sorry. I saw the powder you listed. I'll see how my barrel situation shakes out with Traditions before I do anything.

On a deal like this, where you can go with either powder, will the Iowa DNR make me open the breech and pour the powder out to show them I have black powder, and not smokeless, when they check you for license and firearms? I hunt with people who all use shotguns and it's easy for them to show "what they've got". I can't imagine they will let me slide if they know I can shoot either powder.

SilvertipGrizz · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

From the Iowa Hunting Regs page 24:
Muzzleloaders: Flintlock or percussion cap muzzleloading rifles or muskets between .44 and .775 caliber shooting single projectiles; muzzleloading pistols .44 caliber or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches and no shoulder stock or long barrel modifications. Muzzleloaders equipped with electronic ignition are not allowed. There are no restrictions on in-line or disktype muzzleloaders. Riflescopes may also be used.

I searched all of the Iowa Regs PDF, and fould no reference for blackpowder.
I'd call them and check, but I don't see that they require its use.

SilvertipGrizz · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

iowafarmboy wrote:

These are my sabots that I collected today. The ground is covered with spent shells, so I can't find them all. I noted that my e-z load sabots load the same as the Barnes sabots, but I have to use "barrel butter" to get the Barnes' to load. I tried one today dry and it wouldn't load a full inch.

Can anyone tell me what is going on?

Looking at your pictures, the base of the EZ-Load sabot doesn't look like the skirt has expanded to engage the rifling, as compared to the base on the Barnes Sabot. The EZ-Load probably isn't providing enough resistance to let the pressure to build up and expand the base.

Muzzleload Magnum Products makes a "Ballistic Bridge Sub-Base" which acts as a double gas seal when loaded below the sabot, which might help the EZ-Load. They also make a smaller sabot, the HPH12, for use in tight barrels.

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

I'll check. So other than less residue, are there any other advantages, like higher velocities, or a flatter trajectory? My last rifle (35 years ago) had a 1 in 9 twist ratio. My black powder rifle has a 1 in 28 twist. What are these?

How does their powder costs compare to something like 777? I would assume that you would use a lot less powder. Would it be easy to mistakenly put this powder into a black powder rifle if a person has both types?

fnuser · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

do a google on the greenfield formula this is how optimum twist rate can be found for bullets of different shape round ball twist is even slower 1-66, to 1-72 can be found usually the longer the bullet the faster the twist. your 1-9 might have been a 6.5 or a 7 either of these are found with quick twists from the factory (off the shelf) i have a .270 with a 1-9 and a .280 with a 1-8 do you see a pattern? does that help?

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

I have had the best results with 777 and the Barnes bullets. I have to use Barrel Butter to get the bullet loaded. I read something that I think I will try. AFTER the bullet is loaded, at least one dry patch would be used as it cleans the lube from the barrel. Or do you think, that since it took lube to get the bullet to load, a dry barrel may hurt rather than help. I guess I'll give it a try and see.

Pumpkinslinger · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

In my experience, and reading, sabots work best in a dry bore. The plastic is slick enough, the lube can make it slide out of the rifling.

SilvertipGrizz · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:08 am Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

iowafarmboy wrote:

I'll check. So other than less residue, are there any other advantages, like higher velocities, or a flatter trajectory? My last rifle (35 years ago) had a 1 in 9 twist ratio. My black powder rifle has a 1 in 28 twist. What are these?

How does their powder costs compare to something like 777? I would assume that you would use a lot less powder. Would it be easy to mistakenly put this powder into a black powder rifle if a person has both types?

Less corrosion!!! I can hunt all season without worrying about doing an extensive cleaning. Do that with blackpowder or pyrodex and you'll have a ruined bore.
Most of the blackpowder substitutes with 120gr to 150gr charge will drive a 250gr to 300gr bullet in the neighborhood of 2000fps. My loads drive a 250gr near 2300fps and 300gr near 2200fps.
My Savage has a 1 in 28 twist, which I think is standard for 50 cal muzzleloaders that shoot an elongated bullet.
Powder runs in the $25 to $35 range, for a pound, a little over 150 loads. I would recommend weighing your powder charges, I carry mine in small plastic tubes, which requires a scale, Lee Precision makes one that runs about $22.
I have 3 types of powder, blackpowder, pyrodex,and smokeless and can easily tell the difference between them.
I'm off to deer camp, I'll be back next week.

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

Pumpkinslinger... I have to use a lubricant because my barrel is undersize. Especially in the breech area. I've e-mailed Traditions with no responce. It has only been a week since I e-mailed them, but have no reply yet. So if I use a lubricant JUST in the muzzle area to get a bullet started, it will get stuck about a foot before it gets seated against the powder, where the barrel really gets undersized. I used lead slugs to measure the diameter at several places..

If you go back a page, I have two pictures of old sabots. They appear to be staying in the barrel grooves. But I don't find them all. I always strive for the best accuracy, so if removing the lubricant after the bullet is loaded gives me a better group, I'll do it.

One thing about 777 versus 209 powder. With my barrel, I've had to dump my powder several times, after removing the breech plug, to push the bullet back out the muzzle end when it gets stuck. It happens enough that I carry a strong wooden dowl and a hammer. Anyway, the 209 just pours out, but the 777 (even thogh the bullet is no where near seating against it, is stuck together in a big glob. I have to use a patch remover tool to break it up before I can get to the bullet. I don't know if that is a reaction to the lubricant or what. I've always thought that the powder just lays down there loose as a goose untill the bullet seats against it. I've also thought of loading the powder in a dry barrel, then lube it to within an inch of the powder, load the bullet, then use a dry swab to remove the lubricant.

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

I used a dry patch after loading the bullet but before shooting and it now hits 4 inches above the bulls eye. Where before I was 2 or so low and 2 or so right. Tonight I just looked through my scope at my barrel laser at 50 yards and the red dot is about 2 or 3 left and 2 or 3 high. The laser is a $29 special.

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

Arkansas elevation and Kentucky windage. I know you have to allow for crosswinds when shooting, but how about with or against the wind? With a 20 mph crosswind, the "air" will move about 4.9 inches in the 1/5th of one second it takes the bullet to go 100 yards. So you aim about 5 inches "into" the wind. But the difference in time for the 100 yard distance between shooting into or with the wind should be tiny. So do you allow for wind if it's in your face or blowing down your neck?

I'm trying to figure out why one day, with no changes, my bullets will go 4 inches above the center, then the following day they will drop to the center again. It's been windy the last couple of weeks. Would a 20 mph headwind one day, and a 20 mph tailwind the next produce those changes?

Today I shot my last 2 Barnes bullets, only this time using the 777 primers with the loose 777 powder. They were touching each other at 100 yards. The previous 2 shots with "regular" 209 primers were about 1 3/4 inches apart. I've settled on a wet, dry, dry, dry, dry, add powder, lube patch, add bullet, dry, dry, then shoot. Each dry, dry is one patch both sides. I also started using a pad under my right elbow when shooting off a bench... helps immensely!

fnuser · Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: 45 or 50 cal

from my days of match shooting service rifles 600 yrds head or tail winds got a 0 which means no adj. i wouldn't worry about 100 yrds.

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

Vint2. Barnes is ending me some e-z load bullets to try. They said my barrel was "tight", not undersized :-) I think some of my problems have been with this borrowed scope. I can adjust up and down but not right - left. So I just need to air a couple inches left. Yesterday was calm and I had two groups with bullets in bullet holes. All with Barnes bullets and 777 primers, but still having to use the barrel butter. Still no word from Traditions on my barrel. Do you think Green mountain would build me a replica barrel for my rifle after deer season is over? or would I have to buy a different rifle?

iowafarmboy · Member Joined: Mar 11, 2009 Posts: 109

I'm going to try some 250 grain bullets. Ill reduce my powder (I'm trying 209 again) to 100 grains. I'm using some cheap bullets to get the scope lined up then try the Barnes e-z load bullets. Speaking of scope, I was surprised to see a BRAND NEW scope from Nikon. I sent mine in. It was on a used rifle. I had no idea of how old it was or who even bought it originally. That's first class as far as I'm concerned. They even sent along a $10.00 gift certificate. Too bad Traditions doesn't follow their example. I can't even get them to answer an e-mail about my barrel. Either they are selling so many rifles they are way behind, or they're doing such a terrible job they are buried in complaints.