Well put Chambered...The other important factor is bullet placement and the ability to accomplish this...Repeatedly...

You make a couple of good points Chambered.

Some years ago, when I first started pistol shooting, I read a little about incapacitation and stopping power. At the time the 125gn .357 Mag was considered the "ducks guts" for stopping an errant felon.

Then the FBI opened up the can of worms with its testing of the 10mm / .40 cartridges. The .40 S&W is the round of choice for the Police, certainly in the State I live in, but we rarely have a shooting with it, so to some extent it is still an unknown factor over here.

Having said all the above...I think it is pretty well accepted that a big heavy projectile...not necessarily traveling at astronomic speeds...is the way to go. This is backed up by the results of considerable shootings in the US using the .45 ACP.

But in my mind, shot placement is equally as important, and lethal, as the big heavy projectile. A .22 rimfire shot, well placed, will be every bit as lethal as a .45 shot.

Cheers, Vince

Let's keep in mind that the term "one shot stopping power" refers to convincing the bad guy not continue the argument. It has nothing to do with killing the bad guy.

A .22 will kill on the first shot if place well, but it may not convince him to stop fighting...He may still want to play for a bit more...

When another caliber earns the title 'flying ashtray', I'll use it.

9's are fine and hold the most, 40's are better and hold a little less but, just gimme BIG.

I don't shoot at chrony's or gelitan. Rather, my mindset is about threats wearing lots of clothing.

Little fast bullets trying two make holes are fine, I'd rather have one large bullet making a BIG hole and a crisp SA first pull.

All of 'em will make ya dead and all fill a need.

My .02 fwiw.

Well it's like this.Shot placement may matter ,but in a shootout you don't really have time for accurate groups.Basically If you like lots of bullets to shoot with or you are small built ,use a 9 .But if you like power take .45.

whittling wrote:

Well it's like this. Shot placement is everything in a shootout.

Fixed it fer ya.

Spray and pray is useless. A miss is a miss, regardless of caliber.

Shoot what ya like and hit what ya shoot.

I agree Stovepipe...Bullet placement in a gun fight determines who lies there and who walks away. If you anticipate in being in a gun fight or you carry concealed you must practice until it is second nature. YOU MUST HIT THE TARGET FIRST...AND WELL

Yep-

Been coming along with a 1911 I've been using.

But, if it went all went really wrong right now I'd grab my Alaskan. The action is imprinted in my mind now and I can reload it in the dark.
Even though the Colt holds more I'm still hittin' snags with the 1911 and got some ways to go yet. It'll come but when hard pressed and under duress I function better with my one-hit wonder roller.

Edit- removed recipe.

BFR!!!! Hit em any where. But not much good in real close except for one hell of a powder burn.

whittling wrote:

Well it's like this.Shot placement may matter ,but in a shootout you don't really have time for accurate groups.Basically If you like lots of bullets to shoot with or you are small built ,use a 9 .But if you like power take .45.

Whittlin', you are partially right when you say you don't have time for accurate groups in a shootout situation. However...it's like anything else...practice makes perfect. Also, it doesn't matter whether you are shooting the "Wonder 9", a 1911 .45 or a .22 rimfire...you MUST practice with it.

As Stoves said mate, "Spray and pray is useless. A miss is a miss, regardless of caliber." if you are not going to practice and perfect your ability with your chosen defensive firearm, then you are subscribing to the "spray and pray" philosophy, and in reality probably shouldn't be carrying or using a firearm for self defence.

When you pick up your defensive firearm, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, must become second nature to you...from the mindset, the grip, the "point"and/or sight alignment, the trigger pull and follow through, the reload (heaven forbid you would ever need to do this, but you will need to replace the one round that you fired) and the final security of your firearm in order to assist the felon you have taken down.

The military practice, practice and then practice some more with their firearms mate...this way everything becomes a drill...you do it without consciously thinking...it just happens, the same way every time. The Special Forces people I know practice a "double tap" with their pistol...constantly...and when they pull and fire their pistol two holes appear almost instantly within 3/4" of one another in the middle of the forehead. I have shot with these guys and with all of my target shooting training/practice and my military practice, I could not get two shots off as quickly and accurately as these guys...simply because of the amount of practice they do to maintain their skills.

An old adage we have in the aussie Army mate...



Says it all to me mate.

Bushy wrote:

A .22 will kill on the first shot if place well, but it may not convince him to stop fighting...He may still want to play for a bit more...

Very true mate....unfortunately...but then again a one shot kill will take him out of the fight...but don't miss.

Cheers, Vince

I have carried pretty much all of them except for a: .380ACP, .380Auto, 9x17mm, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Corto, for those that are partial to accuracy you can pick your preference. I have carried revolvers and semi-auto's alike. If a true all out hair teeth and eyeball; blood snot and ass, fight came to find me I would prefer to just have a firearm, regardless of caliber, other than my knife I almost always have. But I do make sure that I am using "good factory ammunition" two reasons for that, liability and RE-liability. Just my two bits on this one.

And not to be a smart aleck but a G22 is a full size .40S&W. I am not sure what you meant so that is why I said I wasn't trying to be a smart aleck.

Ah yes the Bushmaster gets a bit touchy 'bout his carry piece. HA HA HA!!

Vince, without a doubt they opened a can a worms, more like a barrel of whoop a$$.
It’s sad that the 10mm never achieved the recognition and following that it deserved!!!

It’s ironic that Bushy referred to the .40 S&W as “short and weak” I know guys that are 10mm fans that refer to them the same way.

My choice would be my 45 STI's or 10mm Colt or my Glock 20. I also have a S&W 610 revolver that will chamber the 10mm magnum, even better than the plain 10mm.

I think Vince pretty much said it all.

"There's no replacement for displacement" .....and a well placed flying ashtray!

All this reinventing the wheel with .40's and 10's. (I actually like the .40 for fun shootin' and stuff...)

But for my money I'd grab a 9 or an ACP and gitter done.