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Black powder substitutes
Hunting and discussion with Muzzle Loaders, Archery and other Primitive weapons
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roklok
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Location: Fairbanks, Alaska

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I am seeking info on black powder substitutes, specifically Jim Shockeys Gold, American Pioneer,or clearshot. I am an avid muzzleloader shooter and have always used good old Goex black powder, never even considered using substitutes. Imagine my horror to realize that black powder seems to be unavailable in Alaska (if it is available I havent found it yet). Sportsmans Warehouse claims it's too expensive to ship. Track of the Wolf wont ship it to Alaska. I can't bring it up on a plane when I visit the lower 48. Somehow I doubt if Canada would be thrilled if I would bring 25 pounds across in a vehicle. What am I gonna use in my beloved flintlocks? Is there a substitute out there that will ignite in a flintlock pan? I do have 4 pounds I brought with me when I moved, I plan on saving it for priming the pan and the first 10 grains down the barrel until it runs out. I was thinking if there is a substitute that will readily ignite with only black powder in the pan I could make my meager supply last longer. Any input and experiences would be appreciated.
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old lobsterman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

Tried the American Pioneer ffg on advice from a dealer. No trouble with ignition, but got better accuracy with the Goex BP ffg. Have since gone to the Hodgdon Triple Seven ffg with very good results. To tell you the truth though, it was a while ago, and I don't think I really gave the AP much of a chance. But overall, based on threads I've seen on this subject, it seems like the 777 is the best performing substitute, and probably the one that'll still be here in 5 or 10 years. Best of luck, Guy

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d_hoffman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I've got really good accuracy with American Pioneer powder. I have a CVA .45 Magbolt and I shoot 100gr of powder and Cabela's 195gr Dead Center Sabots with .357dia. bullet. I put 3 in the bullseye at 50 yards and that was standing with shooting sticks, not off a bench.

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vint2
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I quit Pyrodex because of rumors concerning cyanide gas production. Could not prove or disprove so stopped using it. Have had good results with both Pioneer and Triple 7 in TC and Cabelas. Have not fired my new CVA Wolf yet, but will get back when I do. Smile

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chuck41
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I suspect that the "substitutes" are going to be just about as hard to get in Alaska as black powder. I know it is not the same thing to a flintlocker, but you could get you a Savage ML10-II and use regular smokeless powder. It is certainly not the same, but it is a heck of a lot of fun. Smokeless shouldn't be hard to get since the shipping is no different than any other regular ammo as it doesn't fall under the explosives classification of BP and substitutes.

I friend on another board just shot a prize moose last week in Alaska with his Savage. He said it traveled only about 40' before falling from one shot.

Most Savage ML10s will get 1 1/2" or better 100 yd groups out of the box. With a little care can cut that by a third or better. You have more power available than you can get with any BP substitute, or you can shoot BP substitutes in it if you really want to. You also have 1000s of different smokeless loads to try and enjoy tinkering with. Just don't try to use smokeless powder in a weapon not designed for it.

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popgun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

vint2 wrote:
I quit Pyrodex because of rumors concerning cyanide gas production. Could not prove or disprove so stopped using it. Have had good results with both Pioneer and Triple 7 in TC and Cabelas. Have not fired my new CVA Wolf yet, but will get back when I do. Smile
I hope we don't stop shooting because of some rumor???
The only hazardous gas mentioned in the MSDS statement is sulfur dioxide that is given off in a large fire with Pyrodex propellant.
Hodgdon Pyrodex MSDS Statement
At the end of the statement they give a telephone number that you can call for more information. You are spreading a rumor so I will leave it to you to prove or debunk your own rumor. Give them a call and post the results.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I've been pretty impressed with Hodgdon's 777. Shoots well, cleans up with just water very easily. It will even work in a blank cartridge, which Pyrodex won't.

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vint2
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

Hey, Popgun, I am not spreading anything, and was actually hoping that some one more knowledgeable than my self might be able throw some light on the subject!! Check on these links and make your own judgement.
shiloriflecom/forums/viewtopic.phd?=&p=72898
or
www.chuckhawks.com/smo...oading.htm
I don't know the standing of these people in the blackpowder community, but know they are published and seem to know more than I do. ( Not hard!!

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shrpshtrjoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

Another Vote for 777.
Joe

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Gigmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I use Triple 7 almost exclusively. It has more power per volume than Pyrodex. If your using max loads, you need to reduce the volume of Triple 7 by a certain amount, 5% I think. I don't worry about it much. My guns can handle it. I shoot 120 grain magnum loads out of my CVA Mountain Hunter with no problems at all.

I do enjoy the huge clouds of smoke that Pioneer makes, but it is pretty wimpy on power.
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

I have to cast my vote for Triple 7 too. The only thing that you might have a problem with is needing to use actual black powder to prime the pans on flintlocks. Hodgdon freely admits that Triple 7 isn't a good choice for priming.

There are other powders on the market that may or may not serve as good substitutes. I have not had experience with any others with the sole exception of a product called CleanShot. This powder appears to no longer be manufactured…and with probably a couple of good reasons. First, I know from talking with an Hodgdon rep that Hodgdon was suing the manufacturers for patent infringement. Second, it just plain was a terrible powder. The lot that I tried gave velocity spreads as high as 600 fps (feet per second) from shot to shot. Variations such as this certainly aren’t conducive to accuracy! The differences from shot to shot were even evident in felt recoil and muzzle blast. Truly a product that won't be missed!

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Gigmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

SingleShotLover wrote:
I have to cast my vote for Triple 7 too. The only thing that you might have a problem with is needing to use actual black powder to prime the pans on flintlocks. Hodgdon freely admits that Triple 7 isn't a good choice for priming.

There are other powders on the market that may or may not serve as good substitutes. I have not had experience with any others with the sole exception of a product called CleanShot. This powder appears to no longer be available.


CleanShot is now called American Pioneer Powder. It's the same stuff. The lawsuit was over the name.
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

If others are having good luck with it then they have obviously solved their quality problem; or else I just plain got a bad lot! In the mean time I'll still stay with what works for me...Triple 7. I just don't shoot muzzle loaders enough anymore to spend the additional time working up different powders.

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vint2
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

It is a good idea not to fix what is not broke, and to make change only when needed or very beneficial!!!

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parkerbill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Black powder substitutes Reply with quote

First off I'll admit to being a "rookie" in the muzzleloading arena, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. But then I'm not going to say much other than, all I've ever used in both my .50 Hawken and new .50 T/C Triumph has been Triple-7 in loose FFFG (this was recommended to me by some very experienced muzzleloaders instead of FFG some time ago, I think because it burns with a bit more intensity and is a bit cleaner--it's also supposed to give a bit more velocity), 50 grain pellets and 2 Triple-7 Magnum pellets.

My Hawken seems to be more consistent with 11M caps and it seems the Triple-7 209s are the ticket for Triple-7 in the T/C.

There are a couple of pretty good web sites that discuss all things muzzleloader and talk at length about powders. They are:

hpmuzzleloading.net/MMLHome.html

www.randywakeman.com/inline.htm

By the way, in case you haven't already heard, Western Powder is coming out with a new black powder substitute called "Blackhorn 209" and if the reviews I read on both the above two webs sites are correct, many current substitutes will most likely become obsolete. It's supposed to be on the shelves in early April. Like I said, both web sites above discuss it in length.

Hope this helps!

Shoot & Hunt Safe!
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