One more thing that can help; Wear loose fitting pants. The stuff can fall out the bottom and maybe the bear will slip on it while your running and shooting.

Any one killed a griz here lately while fishing??? A shot gun? where in hell you going to carry a shot gun with all that tackle and fish. It would have to be a short barreled one that fit into a holster...Snub off the stock too...Shoot the guide...He's the one that got you in this mess in the first place...Damned guide anyway...My choice??? One of the big bore magnum revovers or a reliable Auto Mag...

or a reliable Auto Mag...

Bushmaster, If I were to trust an auto mag to operate in foul weather it would be a 1911 conversion to 460 Rowland. That would definatly stop a charging bear when the shots enter at the base of the neck.

Walt

Damn!!! Another screemin' Conservitive...I just might like him if I don't shoot him first...Oh...Sorry...Can't do that...

I have concidered modifying my Colt .45 ACP to the .45 Super or the .460 Rowland. Still thinking about it. Although I don't plan on being any where near a Griz in the near future. Figure I can deal with the local Black bears with what I have.

By The Way...It's nice to have another person to argue with (and I will argue at the drop of a wide brimmed hat)...Welcome aboard...

Some Auto Mag's are reliable.....or were? I don't know, nor can i speak for others than a Wildey, but the two i had (44 A-M and 475W A-M) shot very well and in the nastiest Michigan weather. Many of the problems i've seen was the way people (uneducated to the gas regulator) would keep on screwing around with the gun and make wrong adjustments. I can honestly say that i wish i never sold the guns (and extra barrels) because now they are $$$$ unless you get one used

The best thing to carry for bear defense is a large can of pepper spray designed for bears, and a magnum handgun for back up.

I worked in Yellowstone Park for 6 years and spoke with several rangers who were charged by Grizzly Bears. All of them used the pepper spray and only one had the bear try again, but when he gave it another shot with the pepper spray it took off as well.

Using the spray has several advantages over shotguns or handguns.

1. It is non-lethal, so you don't have to worry about being fined and possibly jailed as well as losing hunting and fishing rights if you "didn't do everything by the book"

2. You don't have to be terribly accurate. If you have never been on the recieving end of a charging Grizz you probably don't realize just how FAST these things are. You might have time to get a pistol out and get off 1 or 2 shots. If you don't have a shotgun in your hands, loaded, safety off, you might as well carry a baseball bat.

3. If you need to carry that much firepower, there is no game due to the number of bears, and you sure as hell are not going to be able to do much fishing (cast, spin and scan, cast, jump out of waders when stick breaks)

4. If the pepper spray doesn't work, use it or the magnum on yourself. You will either taste too spicy for the bear or not care what the bear does.

5. If you are not on target with the pepper spray, it will still work. If you off target with a gun, you are just going to REALLY piss the bear off. You have upgraded yourself from something that needs a warning (which is what 99.9% of maulings are), to a threat. Ask yourself if you really want to be percieved as a threat by something that can tear the head off an elk with one swipe of a paw?

I helped treat several bear maulings while I worked in Yellowstone. They impressed a few things on me.
The maulings were not intended to kill, if they had, the human would have been dead in the first 2 seconds of the attack.
99% were due to HUMAN error. (walking through the woods with a walkman palying full blast etc.)

The best thing to pack for defense is your head. If you have no respect for the fact that you are NOT at the top of the food chain anymore, then you will get into trouble. Use your head, follow bear guidelines, and don't be so arrogant as to think that you will be able to "whip out my hogleg and put six shots into that bear". If you have never been closer than a tv or movie screen to a Griz, you don't have a clue. It is more likely you will be rooted to the ground, unable to do much more than make wee wee down both legs. Being run down by a Mack Truck on the interstate is slightly less scary than being in front of a charging Grizzly.

I have watched these creatures hunt, kill, and just plain live. I have seen, and sewn up, the results of encounters with them.

When a Grizzly charges, it comes at you full speed (30 mph by the way, if you want to practise shooting a charging bear, holster or sling the gun and jump out 50 yards in front of a compact car doing 30 mph and try to draw, aim and shoot the right front head light out, while the driver is swerving back and forth, blowing the horn) with jaws popping like gunshots and growling loud enough to drown out the pounding of your heart, the ground shaking with it's footsteps, knocking over 3 inch trees like toothpicks, and slobber flying.

Just remember the advice that a ranger friend gave out to people who wanted to know where to go to see bears.

"Bears, are where they find you"

I remember reading years back about a few guys that bought BIG 'ol cans of bear pepper spray for an outing that had potential of bear attacks. Well, as unluck would have it, durring a chase they did manage to spray the bear, but they also sprayed themselves from being downwind from it.

The way i see it, if i can't can't kill a bear with either 1650 grains (minimum 44 mag revolver), 1800 grains or (including 1 reload in total) 3600 grains (10MM) of copper and/or lead.... then i deserve whats comming to me!

Now i'm not saying anything against pepper spray or "OC" because i'd even carry it as a last resort in the event i wasn't able to take the bear down.

With however, the analogy of 30 mph and 50 yards, that gives you aprox. 4 seconds to run, draw, shoot, and get out of the way (in any particular order). Which if you are in the scenario, and have to act in a defensive situation, you should have plenty of time to do that, in the given time.
But i do understand that people think they are up to the task, and don't even think of training or shooting their firearm for that kind of situation which unfortunately it then becomes statistical.

Oh Well, guess I've had it then. Been in a tight spot a couple of times albeit not in front of a charging grizz or coastal Brown. I was checked out once while trying to get a picture of a griz in Alaska. Got a picture of a sow sucking juice out of a can of peaches while the one I wanted a picture of was checking me out behind the tree I was sitting in front of. Guess I wasn't his flavor, but my host gave me a couple of pictures he took of him. He was big for a mountain brown. Could've snatched me up and had dinner if he had chosen. I thank my Father in Heaven for that one. I also got a Butt chewin for going outside the cabin I was supposed to stay in. My host got over that faster than the incident after that, but I'll save that story for another time.

You can spray and pray my friend, and I'm not putting that down. I think I'll spray and blast as blasting something is always my first instinct. I can handle my 454 Alaskan with one hand. By the way, I think I can get my Alaskan out as fast as you can look in your fanny pack for the spray.

Just my opine, and intention. Since I'm not real big on fishin, (just like to eat what someone else catches ) I would only be in those woods with plans to kill something anyway. That being said I would have my Marlin 45/70 in my hands. If he gets me first it would probably be fair huh.

Now.........You may be right Mike, but my intention is two fold. Shoot the guide and then the bear. One of them is going to need some relief after chasing my butt while slipping on my feces.

JUS A PIKIN & A GRINNIN

Walt

Shomebigbores wrote:

You can spray and pray my friend, and I'm not putting that down. I think I'll spray and blast as blasting something is always my first instinct. I can handle my 454 Alaskan with one hand. By the way, I think I can get my Alaskan out as fast as you can look in your fanny pack for the spray. Walt

AMEN to that!

Since the question was defense in bear country, I assumed that if you were hunting in bear country, you would already have a gun in hand.

Since the choices were rifle or pistol, I would take it that you are doing something else in the woods. Fishing, hiking, camping. Try to do any of these with a rifle or shotgun, and you will either get very tired of packing it in your hands, or sling it. If you sling it, you might as well not take it.

I was being generous in the 50 yard example, as the longest distance a bear came from in the maulings I worked on was about 20 yards, most were shorter.

The vast majority of people who have used firearms for self defense in this area got off one shot if they were lucky and then got a "spanking" from the bear.

Don't get me wrong, all the rangers and guides I know that have used pepper spray also had a sidearm in the other hand. But these are people who work and live around Grizzlies all the time. They are in tune with what is going on around them and are constantly alert. If you have to ask what a suitable defense weapon is, you are better off with the spray.

Just don't take the packaging label of "bear repellent" literally. We had at least 6 dumbasses a year come into the hospital who thought it worked like Deep Woods Off. Since these things will spray a stream out to 20 to 30 feet, they wound up with OC imbedded under their skin. OUCH!

BTW bigbores, I wear my bear spray on my belt, on the left side, my M1911 on the right side, loaded with hardball ammo. having it a fanny pack makes as much sense as keeping a gun in your back pack. I can draw either just as quickly, but I would try the spray first. Many charges are a "bluff" charge. The bear letting you know that you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and he isn't happy about it.

Also, as I have some very good friends who are rangers and game wardens, the usual outcome of firearm self defense against a Griz is a wounded Griz. Since they are the ones who have to go out and track these wounded bears down and finish them off, I firmly believe 90% of the population should use the pepper spray. If someone can't hit a standing mule deer at 100 yards with a solid rest on the first shot, then they have exactly a snowballs chance in hell of hitting a charging Griz.

Some advice from people who have "been there"
1. Don't look the bear in the eye, they take it as a sign of agression
2. Don't run. They can run much faster than you, and it triggers threir prey instinct.
3. Play dead. One guy who was mauled was apperently confused about bear attacks and shark attacks. He thought that if he poked the bear in the eye it would leave. All he managed to accomplish wasa feeding the bear the last two fingers on that hand. After he remebered that he was supposed to play dead, and did, the bear sniffed him and walked off.
4. When you are in Griz country, you are not at the top of the food chain anymore, you are one link down.
5. If you have never been around big bears, imagine a pit bull the size of VW bug, and about the same weight.

Last of all, the feds will nail your ass to the wall for killing or wounding a griz if you were not 100% in the right. They are still an endangered species in the lower 48, and the feds really don't care if you were scared or not. If I use pepper spray first, then there is no room for arguement that I "did all I could".

Thanks Mike, You are right on the mark with all I have been told and read. Like I said, my only expeience with them was at night while they were looking for a snack. I just wasn't the silvertips flavor.

I will admit having pepper spray as a fundamental part of my woods equipment. I was trying to put some humor into a serious conversation. I also like the way you carry your spray, I'll have to look for a holster. I also like your .458 defense as that particular gun has proven itself in the wet, dirty service and fires reliably.

Thanks for all your time and advice.

Walt

Having lived around large Kodiak Browns for a few years I will say this. These creatures are totaly unpredictable. They are without question one of the most magnifcent animals that I have ever had the pleasure to observe. They are also very deadly when they decide to be. I had the chance to hunt them but being that even the natives would not use them as food and having the most displeasurable opportunity to sample one, I made the decision that there was no justifiable reason to harvest one.

I really wish that back then I could have had some of the OC Bear Defence Spray, having read first hand accounts of its use and also using slightly lower consentrations in my job hnd having seen its use on very visous dogs I would be very comfortable using this as a first response.

As far as my choice of a defence weapon each individual needs to look at their training and abilities. I have actually used a 12ga loaded with 00 Buck & slugs to assist in terminating a wounded Kodiak. I am able to clear, aim & fire my first round from my 870 or 500 within 2 tenths of a second of a handgun. This is slung over my left shoulder with the muzzle down. My choice now as it was back then is a reliable pump 12ga, first round 00buck, this shot is to the face followed by slugs to the neck/chest as was taught by F&G Officials in Kodiak. The buck will destroy their limited sight, smell and hearing.

I will also say that my Ruger .45 Colt with 300gr hard cast at @ 1100fps was also on my hip if needed along with my partner. We never went out alone up there, even fishing without a partner and being armed. It just wasn't healthy or smart.

Amen!

I was trying to get two main points across, and you illustrated them beautifuly Flint54.

1. Unless you have been closer than a TV or movie screen from these animals, you really don't know how big, fast, and unpredictable they can be.

2. Most people do not have the training or ability to sucessfully use a firearm against a Griz.

If you want to talk about a pucker factor 10 experience, talk to Flint54 about trackiing wounded Griz or Browns. That is the usual result of human bear encounters with guns.

Shomebigbores, I realize you were being humorous. I just take this matter seriously. I have been there in the ER washing and helping stitch up(2500 cm of sutures on one guy) people who have been mauled. sorry for getting on my soap box, but I will stick to 90% of the people in the woods being better off with bear spray.

I do see what you are saying in the fact that i myself, haven't encountered a grizz though..... and yes, they are endangered and with the correct use of OC will/could give an ample oppertunity to get free and clear. Although, i have encountered a few (and not by choice) black bears, and i could only imagine something 4+ foot taller looking at me, as if i were their mid afternoon snack.

Now, if at all i rarely see bears while hunting because i don't hunt in the same areas i used to. Nor have any bears i harvested, or shot in defence even remotely reached 10' and 1k

I do agree with you 110% mikekuzara, with this statement "with the usual outcome of firearm self defense against a Griz is a wounded Griz" because lets face reality.....People often think they WILL be able, and in a sound state of mind, to shoot and kill in a defensive situation.....I'll be the first to admit, there is no way in hell unless you have prior defensive shooting training and even then, every situation is different. Eventhough i have competed in different pistol events, and have a good amount of pistol knowledge....i can honestly say, with something as mammoth as a griz, i don't know how i would react other than the sudden apperance of a skid!

AMEN

As one of the rangers said to a nervous hiker, who had asked what they should do if they could not help it and ran from a Griz. "Just reach down on the trail and pick up some shit and throw it in the bears eyes" The hiker said" what if there isn't any?"

The ranger replied, "Don't worry, if a 1000 pound Grizzly is chasing you, there WILL be shit behind you."