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damianss Member
Joined: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 25
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Anyone use slow powders like 296, h110,4227, W-680 in 45 acp. I was playing around with some slow powders using W680 and my chrony with 230 grain cast roundnose bullets and was getting good velocity and good powder burn using 16.5 grs of W680. Velocity was around 900 fps with no signs of overpressure.
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gelandangan Super Member
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 6401 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Tried 296 in the 45acp before it was banned here.
Not impressed..
Although not much pressure sign, the load is not accurate (at least it wasn't in my gun back then)
_________________ A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.
Do - Not try!
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damianss Member
Joined: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 25
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Well i havent tested it for accuracy i was planning on loading up a few hundred and trying it out. Anyways why was 296 in 45 banned here. Whats up with that. Just because data isnt listed in load manuals doesnt mean you cant use it or it doesnt work. i use several what you call unconventional loads in several of my guns. Some duplex and even triplex smokeless loads. I have worked up a load for 45-70 using 500 gr hard cast that shoots 1880 fps using a triplex load and dont exceed 40000psi that i shoot in my buffalo classic although you dont want to shoot too many of em it gets very hard on the shoulder.
David
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11395 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Wear sun glasses and put on lots of suntan lotion. You'll need it for protection from the muzzle flash burns...
The .45 ACP is a low pressure round and W-296 is for high pressure rounds and needs a very firm crimp to preform and burn completely. Besides where would/did you get loading data for that powder for .45 ACP?
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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gelandangan Super Member
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 6401 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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damianss, all caliber over .40 is banned in this Great Land Of Oz for general shooting because the politicians thought they are more deadly .. beats me - wherever they got those notions.
Only IPSC and other action shots allow the use of them, I do not like to do IPSC, and I absolutely refuse to shoot at human shaped targets that have heads on them.
Here in Oz, the ability to own and fire a gun is a privilege not a right.
Bushy, I was told by some "range expert" to try them.. back then, I was very involved (read desperate) to try to increase my scores, so any snake oil ointment was tried.
_________________ A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.
Do - Not try!
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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damianss wrote: |
i use several what you call unconventional loads in several of my guns. Some duplex and even triplex smokeless loads. |
Ok, I'll bite at this !!!
What do you mean by unconventional duplex and triplex loads ???
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11395 Location: Ava, Missouri
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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He mixes different powder together...
I will make a point to be somewhere else when he is on the firing line...
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote... |
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hunterjoe21 Super Member
Joined: Mar 30, 2007 Posts: 1486 Location: Miles City, Montana
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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I hope he lets everyone else at the range he's shooting a "triplex" load...
I would wanna know....
_________________ My 1911 is more effective than your 911. |
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ElyBoy Super Member
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: Forest Lake Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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_________________ NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
DNR Certified Firearms Safety Instructor
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Handloader Super Member
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 1032 Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Duplex and triplex loads were experimental areas that handloaders of the post WWI and pre WWII tried. After WWII and with the advent of magnum primers and newer powders, much of this experimentation stopped.
The thinking was that a very fast powder loaded over the primer would allow a more thorough burn of the slower powder on top of it. In general, the way in which powder burns was not fully understood and that was the case until more recent years. Back then, it was believed powder burned from the back of the cartridge forward. Today, we know differently.
Other experiments included placing a small tube slightly larger in diameter than a flash hole at the base of the interior of the cartridge. Here the idea was to send the priming charge to the middle part of the cartridge and, hopefully, achieve a less critical rise in chamber pressure, while beginning the burn at mid cartridge.
Along with some of these experiments, we had the whole issue of case design, shoulder angles and powder column sizes (and you thought the WSMs were new? NOT). Steeper angles, venturi shoulders, reverse venturi shoulders, rounded shoulders -- all were championed as having some magical advantage. Rocky Gibbs comes to mind as does PO Ackley, Roy Weatherby and others of that era. Some of this stuff has been debunked and some of it has proven useful and accurate.
We reap the benefits of those early pioneers in reloading and experimenters. Sometimes, old methods come back in a new iteration only to have the theory substained. We live in a nation whose central passion has been somewhat subdued and in its place is the chorus of those chanting "safety first" safety first. We tend to believe what we read in the reloading manuals and often quote them as if they were scripture, not to be violated. Yet, time and again, we become aware of exceptions and intentional deceptions in published data. Well, we take solice, or, refuge in still being able to count ten digits on our hands and, usually, with two good eyes.
Modern handloaders have far more lab quality equipment at their disposal today. Things such as load programs, piezo strain gauges, chronographs, et al. are within the financial reach of most or free. Experimenting and getting empirical data is easier than yesteryear or even yesterdecade. We are rediscoverning the old stuff and, sometimes, we are inventing the new. But, we move forward on the backbone of other's successes and failures. We move cautiously. But, if we are not moving forward, if we are stagnant, we are finished.
The US let control of the SuperCollider escape our borders and it will come back to prove a disasterous decision. At least on the personal level we can think up new things for reloading, of new cartridges and continue a long tradition of innovation and improvement. Or, we can stand by.
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ElyBoy Super Member
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: Forest Lake Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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_________________ NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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A17Shooter Super Member
Joined: Jan 26, 2005 Posts: 322 Location: California Foothills (Gold Country)
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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There are really great loads and combinations of powders and cartridges that the loading manuals don't show. After all the manuals are published to provide middle of the road info and to sell powder and bullets. If you are going to go wildcatting it is sometimes necessary to go where no man has gone before.
I still need to do the load work on my 204 Ruger with 50 gr Bergers and WW780. Not to mention the 60 gr GunHaus bullets & WW780.
Life is just an adventure and score can be kept by appendages lost.
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ElyBoy Super Member
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: Forest Lake Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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_________________ NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
DNR Certified Firearms Safety Instructor
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5002 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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damianss wrote: |
... I have worked up a load for 45-70 using 500 gr hard cast that shoots 1880 fps using a triplex load and dont exceed 40000psi ... |
How are you measuring the pressure?
I kinda like the way my hands, eyes, etc. work and look now so I believe I'll stick with published loads, developed by folks who have the proper testing equipment. Besides, I haven't seen any "home grown" loads that will do anything more than the published ones do.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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chambered221 Super Member
Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 3455 Location: Lost for good !!!
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Slow powders in 45 acp |
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Bushmaster wrote: |
He mixes different powder together... |
That's what I was thinking but wanted him to say it !!!
_________________ Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington |
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