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Out of State Hunters
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Handloader
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Joined: Aug 22, 2005
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:40 pm    Post subject: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

In Arizona the issue of out of state hunters has been a hot hot matter. Revisions to the draw for this year have reduced significantly the number of resident hunters drawn for elk, antelope and deer as mandated by the Federal Court. That ruling was overturned but its effects is felt this year; next year it reverts back to the 10% of total tags to out of state hunters.

I've hunted in Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Idaho, Montana & Wyoming and have never resented paying the fees charged to out of staters. Most fees have been reasonable when compared to the overall expenses of the hunt(s). And, I do believe that residents should have the first chance at game in their state.

Still I read that there is much pressure to open hunting and regulate it on an interstate basis. I oppose this vehemently. It is my opinion that if you wish to hunt in a given state either move there or shut up and pay the toll.

What is your viewpoint? Is this an issue for you?
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popgun
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Location: Mitchell, GA, U.S.A. (2007 pop. 191)

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

I don't object to out of state license fees but I do feel that they should be reciprocal to the prices charged in a persons home state. I know that opens a can of worms too.
I don't object to tag fees for animals that require a draw but I don't think the cost of a hunt should represent an upward cost of tag fees. The hunts are way too expensive to the average person who lives out of state and it's mostly a 10% out of state draw for the few with means for the hunts. More power to the 10% and that's just the way it is and I won't be hunting in the west.
I don't think a 'Federal Hunting License' that would allow someone to hunt in all states is practical or the answer. It would probably price many out of hunting anyhow. Just another finger in the pie that is not needed and states rights would intervene. Just a mess so lets forget that idea.
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robfromaz1977
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Joined: Aug 03, 2005
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Location: Arizona's White Mountains

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Handloader wrote:


Still I read that there is much pressure to open hunting and regulate it on an interstate basis. I oppose this vehemently. It is my opinion that if you wish to hunt in a given state either move there or shut up and pay the toll.


I AGREE WITH YOU HANDLOADER. AS A RESIDENT OF AZ I FIND IT HARD ENOUGH TO GET A TAG WITH A 10% NON RESIDENT CAP. FOR EXAMPLE I HAVE BEEN APPLYING FOR ANTELOPE FOR OVER 10 YEARS AND HAVE NEVER BEEN DRAWN. IF THAT 10% CAP WERE TO GO AWAY OR THERE WERE NO CAP AT ALL I WOULD PROBABLY NEVER GET A TAG. I USED TO DRAW A DEER PERMIT EVERY YEAR WITHOUT A PROBLEM BUT THE LAST 4 YEARS HAVE BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL. THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS THE 3 BULL ELK PERMITS I HAVE DRAWN BUT THAT IS OVER A 12 YEAR PERIOD. THE LAST ONE WAS IN 2003 FOR A UNIT 1 ARCHERY HUNT. THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING IT WILL PROBABLY BE THE LAST BULL TAG I WILL EVER SEE. LUCKY FOR ME I WAS ABLE TO TAKE A NICE 370 CLASS 7X7 ON THAT HUNT.
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longwalker
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

The real picture is this, If hunting is important to you and your family move some where where you can hunt. Sounds draconian, but lets face it you can't have your cake and eat it too.

5 years ago I moved from the east coast gave up the big money and moved to South Dakota. I'am happier and the family is happier. For non resident hunters SD is spendy not terrible. Getting a big game tag is a little more of a problem. If you want the wide open spaces on demand, it is going to cost you one way or an other.

I know one thing for sure if we allow some national office of fish and game to control hunting and fishing. That will be the end of hunting as we know it. That would be just to big a target for the national anti's.

longwalker
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delboy
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Joined: Apr 21, 2005
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Location: London England

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Coming from a small (by your standards anyway) country, I find it sometimes hard to get my head round your laws. You ALL live in America, don't you? If I want to go and hunt in Scotland or Wales - I go. You seem to act as though you are a collection of countries all arranged on the same continent, like Africa. Everyone has different laws, regulations, police forces. I am not being disparaging when I say this, I just find it hard to work out why it's so difficult to get something in one part of the country and yet so easy in another. Washington vs Arizona to own a gun for instance. I can get a gun as easily in London as I can in Scotland. Seems we score over you for once! As to this "tag" business, do you have to enter some kind of raffle to be able to shoot game over there? If I want to go shoot a deer - or ten deer - the only limit is the thickness of my wallet to pay for the beast(s) at the end of the day! To think I was considering coming over to you for a bit of hunting next year - I think y'all better get over here while we still got some! Can someone explain this "tag" issue to me? Thanks guys.
Del.

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LittleMagnum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Being a Instate and Out of state Hunter, I think draws license are fair and I am glad uncle sam, step in and passed the 10% rule. Next I would like to see uncle sam pass a law that would allow anyone to hunt Public Federal land for the same common fee and have the gov. regulate the game laws and Tag's on the Federal land, following the game laws in that state.
Wouldn't it be nice to hunt Federal Land which is everyone land for a normal common fee ?
Now that, that pipe dream is over... I think in today's day and age States shouldn't take 3-6 month's to tell you if you got drawn. Example March 15, deadline in WY, April 1 you got your answer.
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Handloader
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Joined: Aug 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Howdy delboy

Drawing for game tags: In its basic form, drawing for tags is a result of supply and demand. The demand for game tags outweighs the supply of game in some areas and for some species. Since the mainline thinking is that we are all benefitted by stable and increased game populations, game management (for all its problems and successes) limits access by numbers and equalizes opportunity based on the draw and not the fair market value of the tags. This has been an important factor in keeping the price of hunting within the realm of the common man and not allowing it to become the sport of only the well monied.

State by state regulations: In an effort to keep centralized government minimal, states are given the power to legislate in all the areas where the Federal Government is not empowered by the Constitution. Conceptually, the states and the Fed form equal partners. We lable this process States Rights or Federalism. This allows more local input and flexibility to the needs of those area's citizens. Now, it ain't perfect, Lord knows, but it has achieved its main purpose of keeping power from becoming too centralized. Citizens, then, can have and do have a more critical voice in determining local laws and legislation.

Gun Laws: Your observations are shared by many delboy and is an example where Federalism must bow to Constitutional stipulations. Most of us that own firearms consider it a Constitutional right that cannot be abrogated by state law. Recent legal decisions are confirming that position. The premise is that firearms ownership is not a privilege granted by the state, rather a right of such fundamental importance that no state should be in a position to limit same. But, of far more importance to the issue of firearms possession and ownership, the people of the United States have the right to change their government by force if needed, a basic tenant of the Declaration of Independence. Power, absolute power, resides in the people and not the State.

Now, delboy, a question if you will: Your mention you could buy a gun as easily in London as in Scotland. For the sake of discussion, what is entailed for you to buy a centerfire rifle or, let's say, an automatic or revolver handgun? Could you or any average citizen of your country go into a gunstore, buy the firearm of your choice and leave with it on the same visit? What body must approve of your firearm ownership? Its always interesting to hear of firearms ownership in other countries so that comparisons can be made.
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delboy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Hi Handloader. Firstly we have two licenses here, an FAC (Firearm Certificate) and a SGC (Shotgun Certificate) An SGC is mine by right in that the police (who are the governing body and licensing authority) have to show cause as to why I should not have one before refusing to issue one. With an FAC, it is a privilege to get one, not a right, and I must show both need and (very) good reason for wanting one and I can be refused without reason when applying. With an SGC I can go anywhere and buy a shotgun or ammunition and walk out with it, there are no limits (other than financial) as to how many shotguns or how much ammo I can buy or keep. I usually buy 1000 rounds at a time and have bought as much as 5000 cartridges if the price is good. With an FAC, the calibre is specified on the licence and also how much ammo can be purchased or possessed at one time. To buy another gun I have to first have my license amended to cover it. It makes no difference whether a rifle is rimfire or centrefire, it's still a rifle here. Rifles are either single shot or magazine fed by bolt/lever/pump action, semi auto's are not allowed. Full auto is for the armed forces only, even the police cannot have them. Equally, pistols are not allowed except for use by the police. Revolvers are allowed providing they are either black powder or, if metallic cartridge, have a barrel of at least 24". Hope this helps.
Del.

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delboy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Handloader, just as an aside. Bows, crossbows and crossbow pistols are allowed here without any form of license, but they get you another way. It is illegal to hunt or take any kind of game or vermin with any of the above - you can't even legally stick a rat with an arrow or bolt. We've got some really cute laws here!

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Handloader
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

delboy: thanks for your reply and information. I found it interesting if not a bit depressing. But, then, we have states in our union that are rather restrictive of firearms ownership as well.

Because of this type of Federalism, many of us choose to live in states where firearms ownership is not restricted further by the state. It is common in Arizona to see folks walking around with sidearms and it is reasonable to assume that many people's vehicles have firearms on board. In Arizona, a conceal carry permit is a "shall issue" proposition that must be granted based on completion of a short course (8hours), passing a written test and demonstrating reasonable proficiency and a background check by the Department of Public Safety. Most permits are issued within two to three weeks.

If we read some of the compilations of firearms laws from state to state we find lots of inconsistencies. Some momentum is being gained to have states recognize the concealed carry permits of other states or, at least, to have some sort of commonality of laws affecting the transportation of firearms from one state to another by private citizens. Many states now have reciprocity agreements on concealed carry.

Several of my friends in Australia have kept me abrest of their firearms laws, most of which is based on the premise of "privilege" rather than on the premise of "rights". Its depressing to see that Australia's crime rate has risen as a result of more restrictive recent legislation.

Stateside the debates continue, but, I take some delight in a recent article in the "Wall Street Journal" where a panel concluded that there is a direct corrolation between firearms ownership and crime rates. Their research showed that where firearm ownership is not restrictive that the crime rate is lower. Conversely, everytime ownership is restricted the crime rate rises. What is most interesting is that several of the panel members were anti-gun prior to the study.

Some of us, myself included, believe strongly that the right to keep and bear arms is the underpinning of our entire Constitution. As such, these issues are sensitive and emmotional.

The best to you.
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Flint54
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Getting back to fees for out of state hunting, I do not believe that there should be any Federal involvement other than setting a limit for Non-Resident Hunters on National / Federal Land. These areas are set aside for all US Citizens and they are the areas that I hunt normally when I go out of state. The monitoring of these areas is mainly the responsibility of Federal Employees with very little State Management so hence, just like National Parks a set fee for hunting should be in place.

Some of the states are way out of my price range as are guides. I enjoy Hunting and being resopnsible for finding my quarry. I am not anywhere near being or wanting to be a trophy hunter, a big rack just doesn't matter to me. I'll fill out most of my deer tags with does and possibly an ocational buck. The antlers find their way into buttons, powder measures, knife handles or whatever, I will admit that they make dragging out your deer easier as the handles are built in. Laughing My family loves wild game much more than meat off the shelf and the hides are used for many things.
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mikekuzara
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Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

Laughing So many issues from one question!

Here in Wyoming, a Concealed Cary License is a shall issue basis as well. Unless the State finds that you have a criminal record, mental health problems, etc. you can not be refused. In fact there is only one city in Wyoming where it is illegal to carry an un-concealed firearm. Anywhere else you can carry a loaded un-concealed firearm on your person. You just can not go into bars or government buildigs with it.

Since Wyoming is around 50% Federal lands I have to disagree with having the feds involved in licenses or game management. With the exception of the National Parks, Yellowstone and Grand Teton, the federal managers have no interest in game management unless the species is threatened or endangered. I shudder at the thought of having political appointees in Washington D.C. making decisions on hunting and fishing. The game management decisions here are made soley by the biologists of the Game and Fish Department. There are no political controls. Having the politicians make rules is how mountain lion hunting in California was banned, as well as bear hunting in other states. Wyoming has taken great pains to completely remove the political element from game management. In fact the state legislature is forbidden by law from making those decisions.
Most out of state licenses are through a draw system here, although you can still buy over the counter licenses for certain species in certain areas.
Residents have to draw for licenses for moose, antelope, big horn sheep, and mountain goat. Areas that have specific management quotas for deer and elk are on a draw basis as well. This is soley because of the intense management needed to maintain populations of these animals in the areas they inhabit.
Being a resident, this year I can buy over the counter my elk license $38.00, deer license $28.00 and up to 4 additional doe and fawn licenses $20.00 each.
Guides are only required in wilderness areas for out of state hunters. With good reason. With the largest areas of roadless wilderness inthe lower 48 states, having people with questionable outdoor skills and little first hand knowledge of the terrain and dangers present is not a good idea.
The thing I always tell any of my friends from out of state is that when you go out in the woods here, you are NOT at the top of the food chain any longer.
The forest service and game and fish recommend carrying pepper spray and wearing little cow bells when in Grizzly country.
So the question is asked, "if you are walking down a trail and see bear scat, how can you tell if it is Grizzly or Black bear poop?"
Answer"if it has little cow bells in it and smells like pepper, it's from a grizzly."
Someone once asked a game warden friend of mine what he could do if he was chased by a grizzly bear. This person did not think they could "play dead" and wanted to know if there was anything they could do.

My friend replied that the best thing to do was reach down behind them and pick up some manure and throw it inthe bears face.

The person then asked what if they couldn't find any manure?

My friend said"believe me, if you are being chased by an 800 pound grizzly bear, there is going to be manure behind you."

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515034s10ring
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Out of State Hunters Reply with quote

It would irritate me in a way, not soo much for game that's in abundance in the area (but still a mandatory out of state fee should not be a question). So i do strongly feel that your home state should accommodate you first.

Although, and in the fact that i have been trying to get a Michigan Elk tag for 19 years, i'd be damn mad if i didn't get first chance dibs at it.
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