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Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal's 168gr SMK Match load?

Since I am on the path of reloading now, I figured a good round that would be decently accurate in any 308Win rifle I shoot it in would be better to start off with then "specific" loads for both my guns.

I'm thinking:

Remington Cases.
CCI #34 Large Mil-Spec Primers
Hodgodon Varget
Sierra 308cal 168gr. Match King

Would be fed to both my Loaded M1A and my Envoy. Nothing near max charges would be great. Smile

Any ideas?

Dimitri

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roklok
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

This load does not duplicate that match load but gives near match accuracy in my M1A. And with cheap bullets to boot. Federal cases, Remington 165 Core-lokt, 46 grn of 748 with CCI 250 primer. Pictured is a 3 shot .245 inch group at 100 yards with my M1A Bush rifle. I have heard that 43-44 grains of 748 with the 168 SMK is a pretty good starting point to duplicate the factory match load. I use my M1A for hunting so didnt want to use the SMK.



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rdwllce
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Thats sweet!!!

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Dimitri -

The classic match load for the M1A is 168 grain SMK over 40.5 - 41.5 grains of IMR 4895. IMR 4064 works well with this bullet too.

Even with the Varget, as long as you get it moving about 2600 fps the SMK will be a tack driver.

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aznative
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

There is some good reading over at Sniper Central:
www.snipercentral.com/...hp?t=10807

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Thanks for the link. Smile

Dimitri

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

So I've been doing some studying since posting this.

Anyways I was wondering if anyone knew if Sierra really dropped their max charges much?

Looking at the Hodgdon data and theirs, other then the Federal verses Winchester cases, Sierra seems to list much lower max charges then Hodgdon.

For example for the 168gr Sierra Match King, with for example Varget - Sierra lists 43.5gr while Hodgdon lists a compressed load of 46gr while still listing only a 51,000CUP pressure.

This make any sense to any of you?

Dimitri

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popgun
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Loads in all the manuals change all the time. It is not, as commonly thought, about liability and money grubbing lawyers. It is because over time the powders lots change either faster or slower depending on the lot or lots tested for the manual data.

As for pressure, concern yourself more on the pressure curve not the max pressure. The M1-A's as I told you before have a select velocity range and the powders recommended here, IMR4895, IMR 4064, and Varget match the pressure curve that the M1A requires for proper function (port pressure) without knocking parts off as happens when too much of the wrong powder is used. Several manuals list specific powders and charge range for the M-14/M1-A. Stick to those manual suggestions. Read up on pressure curves and it will make sense to you.

2550 fps will shoot well in your rifle with Sierra 168 gr Match Kings.

Remember, do your own load work. Most M1-A's shoot well with similar loads but all rifles are a tad different meaning a slight change in load from so called Standard loads might be required. Just buy some powder and start your load testing. With current shortages test any of the powders you can find that are recommended here. I would try any 4895 you can find as they all shoot 'just about' the same.

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

D,
When I owned my AR-10T I had the Springfield Armory pre set scope on the rifle. The scope was made by Hakko of Japan, now out of business. The SA scope has reticles set for distance, using the 308 match load as its constant. I developed the follwing load specificly to duplicate the ballistics and trajectory of the 168gr match load.

Hornady 168gr BTHP match over 42gr of H-4198 with Federal 210 primers in RP prepared cases.

The match load is listed as 2500 fps and the load as developed chronoed at an average of 2517. The SD was about 7 FPS, as I recall, very stable. The scope shot dead on at all ranges out to 500 meters using the preset reticles, once sighted in at 100. The average group size for the load was .502 at 100.

My notes indicate the gun shot .5, .6 and .5 at 42, 42.5 and 43 grains with no pressure signs at all.

The AR is not an M1-A so it is wise to keep the concern about the M1-A and pressure curve in mind.
Best,
Ed

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, it just seemed odd that the newer Hodgdon manual lists higher speeds then the older Sierra, no big deal I'll stick to the lower max's to be safe. Smile

I'm thinking about a case loaded with Varget right now. Since its temperature insentive, which is important if I am developing loads in the summer and end up hunting in the Winter. As well apparently a case full of Varget behind a 168gr MK still will only go up to 51,000CUP per Hodgdon.

Considering my Envoy has a small bore (.307" not near the upper .3085" limit) I'm thinking I'll take the "accurate" loads I got off my research online on a few sites using Varget and I'll drop a grain from the load, make a bunch and see how they work out.

Still my Envoy has a 29" long barrel, so I should see some improved velocities even though I plan on dropping the load by a grain. What do you think? Confused

Dimitri

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Powder data and bullet data never seem to correspond with one another!!!

I suspect it’s due to differences in test parameters.
I wouldn’t worry to much about it as long as your starting low and working up like you plan.

Stop talking about it and start reloading !!! We want to see some results !!! Very Happy Shooting

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Temperature sensitive or not. You need to check preformance of a load that is for cold weather. Temp sensitivity is usually determined by pressures developed in hot weather to pressures developed in cold weather. And they will vary...

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

D,
I do not have any experiance with Varget but do have experiance with the other stuff you ask about.

At a point a bore that is smaller stops adding to velocity and starts to reduce the velocity. With a .001 difference you will most probably see a max load reached by the .307 before the .308. As long as you are well below max with both guns you should have no problem, but expect the .307 to give a tad higher velocity with the same load and equal barrel length.

In the cold VS warm load development business, just do not do as I did when a novice reloader many years ago. Develop your load in winter and try to shoot it in the late spring. My first 6.5x06 did not like that at all and after three shots not hitting paper I discovered the bullets were disintegrating about 50 feet out. On the third shot after the rifle warmed up a good bit, the primer just fell out. I took that to be a serious pressure sign Very Happy Warm to cold will not get you into trouble but the reverse sure will especially if you are playing the edge of a max load to start with.

Today, I look for loads that do not care to much what temprature you are in.
Best,
Ed

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Bushy,

You are right one must check to be certain it will preform as it should in the winter as well. But if the load doesn't change much then all the better.

SwampFox,

Varget according to Hodgdon and other sources seems to be very temperature stable. In their little test in the catalog, they list Varget from 0-125*F only changing 8fps, while Reloader 15 for example changes 50fps and IMR 4064 going to spread 46fps due to the temperature. Fired out of a 308Win using Winchester Brass, Winchester Primers and 168gr Sierra MK's.

This is what got me interested in Varget, and I've sent a email to a reloading supply manufacturer to see about getting some of the powder and some Norma brass as I am told its very consistent.

Dimitri

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Anyone here attempted successfully to duplicate Federal? Reply with quote

Good Luck trying to get your hands on some Varget right now !!! Sad

Lapua brass is considered the best by many. Norma is a close second. Either will satisfy your needs.

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