Just finished reading this short article and thought.....what the hey....lets chuck the cat amongst the pigeons.

The floor is open for discussion gents.

.308 Winchester versus .30.06 Springfield

Cheers, Vince

I have gone round and round with Bart over this issue for 15 years. While he makes a good case, he does not address all the factors associated with practical rifle accuracy, nor does he report on accuracy under laboratory conditions, and by corollary, does not update his data as component technology changes.

Notice the article limited itself to 2 cartridges. What is even more interesting, and supports my theory is that now that the NRA allows 223 in competition, the 223 is sweeping the 308 off the map in terms of accuracy (in competition).

Now, according to Bart's theory, the "short, fat" configuration of the 308 contributes to it's inherent accuracy. If you look at proportions, however, the 223 has a longer powder column in proportion to its caliber than the 308. It should be less accurate according to Bart's theory.

My theory, OTOH, takes into account the one factor that Bart studiously avoids - that of felt recoil. The reason that the 308 surpassed the 30-06 in competition is because the 30-06 kicks harder due to increased gas volume that the cartridge produces, hence the 223 is more accurate than the 308 because it produces less gas volume.

I have never seen a rigorous laboratory test between the 30-06 and the 308, but the results from informal tests in quasi-laboratory conditions lead me to believe that there is no gain with short powder columns.

I have had the pleasure of shooting all three calibers from "one hole" rifles. Kenny Jarrett, in the 1990s, regularly made benchrest capable rifles in 30-06 with sporter weight barrels.

I have immense amounts of respect for Bart Bobbit as a shooter; he is one of the very best. But even a good shooter can be wrong sometimes.

But of course...I would be very leary of anyone with the name of Bobbit.

Joking aside...I own a Browning A-Bolt in .30-06...It just plain shoots better then I do. Until I can out shoot that rifle I'll stick with it. The best I've been able to do with it is 3 shots in a 3" dot at 200 yards (I've only been able to do this twice) resting on sand bags, my shoulder and elbow. For what I do (hunt), that's good enough...

While I do reloads for accuracy, you are absolutely right ,Bushie, and practical application is a most important consideration. I like knowing that I can shoot extremely tight groups because it tells me that when I miss it is MY fault and not the weapon!! I feel that it gives you more confidence in the field!!!!!

Other than the .50 BMG, what caliber is used the most throughout the world today as a sniper rifle?

What caliber is used the most in competition?

I believe the answer to both is .308.

The 30-06 has been around longer than even Bushy. The '06 has been used as a military round longer than the .308 and has been used as a sniper rifle.

Even though the .308 is a more acurate round than the '06, the .308 could never develope the power of the '06.

Both rounds are good military and hunting rounds. It basically comes down to personal preferrence.

Hey where does the .300 mag come in! lots of military rifles use this catridge plus its got tons of power, velocity and accuracy!

You are absolutely correct in that Weibender, however this thread is comparing .308 and 30-06.

I believe comparing the 308 to the 30'06 is like saying redheads are better than blondes. Pick which one ya like and go with it.

Well actually, all a redhead is is a blonde in cognito

I have never owned a 06 so I can't comment on the accuracy of one but I do have a 308 It will shoot sub moa consistantly with the right load. I have loaded from 130gr through 180 gr bullets and they all have shot moa with a tuned load.
Joe

Quote::

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges.

The reason the 308Win seems more accurate is because of the fact it has a higher load density with standard military powders then the 30-06, if you handload rounds with high load densities with the right powders in the 30-06 you will get similar accuracy on similarly built guns.

Dimitri

It depends. I have seen a lot of .30-06 and .308 rifles on the firing line turn in excellent groups. I would be hard pressed to say one caliber is more accurate because there are many variables in rifles, shooters and loads. I happen to own both calibers and plan to keep them for a long time. Take care...
Joe

d_hoffman wrote:

Even though the .308 is a more acurate round than the '06, the .308 could never develope the power of the '06.

A quote from the Speer #13 Manual (page 281):

"We've had many callers ask why the 308 velocities shown are equal to or better than some of the 30-06 velocities shown a few pages ahead. They ask if it's a mistake. No, it's real, and there are two reasons.

First, a compact case and a higher pressure limit give the 308 an edge with bullets up to 150 grains. Things are about equal with the 165 grain bullets, but the big 30-06 case's ability to hold a lot of slow-burning powder gives it the upper hand with heavy bullets.

The second reason is the sporting rifles we used to record final velocities. Both have 22" barrels and were bought at the same time. The 30-06 sporter posted velocities about 50-100 ft/sec behind the 24" pressure barrel. That's normal. On the other hand, the 308 sporter was consistently equal to or slightly faster than the pressure barrel................."

What this means is that not only is the 308 more accurate than the 30-06, but in Speer's tests with bullets up to 150 grains, it develops more velocity (power), and with 165 grain bullets it is equal to the 30-06.

Vince wrote:

Just finished reading this short article and thought.....what the hey....lets chuck the cat amongst the pigeons.

Vince,

That's a term that is new to me. Brings up an interesting picture though.

Well the article is limited to 308 Vs 30-06 in a target match environment, the way I read it. It is also a snapshot in time, as it was written in 1997. There have been some new developments in powder, bullets and what is being used on the High Power Range since then.

A17Shooter wrote:

It is also a snapshot in time, as it was written in 1997. There have been some new developments in powder, bullets and what is being used on the High Power Range since then.

Dimitri wrote:

The reason the 308Win seems more accurate is because of the fact it has a higher load density with standard military powders then the 30-06, if you handload rounds with high load densities with the right powders in the 30-06 you will get similar accuracy on similarly built guns.

Precisely! But in a machine rest. Shooting across a course of fire in a match, my contention is that the 308 will always come out on top over all because of the felt recoil factor. In a hunting situation, this is not an issue, because you are not going to shoot 80 rounds in 20 minutes (unless you are prairie dog hunting, in which case you are probably not using a 308 OR a 30-06).

As to d_hoffman's point, the 50BMG sniper rifle is quite rare. So rare, in fact that only about a dozen countries specify one in the T.O. & E. at the battalion level. More countries actually issue the 338 Lapua at the battalion level than the 50BMG, according to the last Jane's that I read. But that was a couple of editions ago. Things may have changed.

The reason that the 308 is the most popular round for military snipers is logistics. The standard NATO GPMG shoots 308, and was an outgrowth of the standard Cold War MBR cartridge that was used by 80 countries in some variant of the FAL and in the US in the M14 and Germany in the G3. Had the Free World gone with a short .276 cartridge after WWII, likely the standard sniper round would have been a .276 caliber. I don't know what civil agencies use, but I would be very surprised if they used a 308 because of the liability associated with penetration. In the largest city near to me, they have 223s and 243s.