My personal opinion... I don't understand taking a high powered rifle and reducing the velocity to subsonic levels, especially for hunting. Taking a .308 Win and turning into a .38 Special (energy wise) doesn't make sense to me, for hunting. It's one of those "just because you can doesn't mean you should" things.

for pure "culling" it allows multiple animals in small area to be killed/culled without noise disturbance.
much much more dog ear friendly
can shoot in areas/frindge areas where the noise of a supersonic load would cause issues with neighbours etc,also better around stock such as horses who can be a tad temperamental about such things...or not.
but you are 100% correct,there is NOTHING a subsonic can do that a supersonic cant do a hell of a lot better.
I used them for about 15 sheep over a 2 year period and went back to using .223 as it was just so much more certain/quick/guaranteed/humaine and that was at 50 yards or less.....my fault my results werent better...had I used better projectiles and mucked around getting rifle zeroed pinpoint with better scope,results may have been better....bottom line is a .22lr would have been easier.
all that said I have 6x subsonic .223 rounds next to 14 supersonics sitting on couch next to rifle ready for afternoon wander
why??? for the other reason they are good for. hares, rabbits,wallabies,goats, ,possums and I guess your coyotes......while in area where targeting something bigger/better for table..pure pest control sort of deal

I guess one could also ask why a person would use a bow n arrow when rifle is available....
or why everyone doesnt just use a .308 or .270 comes into it as well.

when you get all your ducks in a row,subbies are fun and are really different,when duck is out of line they SUCK BIGTIME and thats the bit folks must understand going into using them....no place for blinkers,must have eyes wide open to the bad side when making choice to use them.

I love slow loads with my 4570.
I load my cartridges to 1250 fps or thereabout to match the trajectory of my 22 LR with heavy projectile circa 480 grains.
While I do have 223, 243 and 308 that do much higher velocity, I rather hunt with my 300 whisper with my own cast bullets at about 1100 fps.
They are more economical, fun and pleasant to shoot

My thinking is if I cannot stalk closer than 100 meters then I would not get my shot right anyway.

I use Sierra Gamekings in my 308's since they ballistically match the Matchkings I use at the range.

They require 1,800fps or greater to reliably expand. Which is much higher then subsonic velocities and limits its usefulness in my opinion to 400 yards as a hunting round. No matter how well I can reliably touch paper beyond that range.

gelandangan wrote:

My thinking is if I cannot stalk closer than 100 meters then I would not get my shot right anyway.

Most guys here will use a shotgun with slugs at that range. That is when I take out the 30-30 myself.

I use SubSonics in only two situations…hunting rabbits with a .22 (SubSonics excel in this instance) and very rarely when I go to the range. I have cast bullets for my .223 REM, .243 WIN, 30.30 WIN and .303 BRITISH. The only ones I would consider using for hunting are the cast 30.30 and .303 assuming I’ve used the correct hardness of alloy in the bullet.

Elvis brings out some very pertinent points, but you need to ensure you are well zeroed for your subsonic rounds.

Dimitri…the max range I would consider using a slug…from a smooth bore (I dint have a rifled barrel for my shotgun) is 50 metres. At that range it is accurate and lethal. I have considered getting a rifled choke for my Fausti Stefano 12g O/U, but haven’t had any luck identifying the thread pitch etc and then finding a rifled choke.

Rifled barrels are another world out of shotguns.

With 1 MOA accuracy and out a sabot like Hornady's 12 ga SST at 1,341fps and 1,198ft-lbs at 200 yards.

That's more velocity and energy at 200 yards the Hornady's 45-70 Subsonics at muzzle.

I don't know anyone who uses a rifled choke. Not sure how well they'd preform.

4.5 grns of trail boss behind a 55grn projectile works in .223 quite nicely.
got blow back with a 40grn one so have upped charge to 5.5grns...will see how that goes.
you fellas with semis have option to have mag loaded with supers underneath a subbie up the spout..... best of both worlds.
pigs in a pen/trap would be another good use for them.

Vince, I would suggest NOT to go for a rifled choke unless you go for rabbithunting with the use of ferrets. Expensice FN's where made for that purpose (with a rifled fixed choke) and they helped to get a more open shotpattern. But even then is was hard to keep the choke clean...

Think revolver: the (lead) bullet starts in a non-rifled chamber (the cylinder) and enters the forcing cone... where do you find most leading in the barrel? Right behind the forcing cone...
now your 12 cal where the slug gets full speed in the barrel and then meets the rifling...

and at the end: when you have removable chokes, what will happen to them? Or they unscrew or the screw much faster untill the cannot remove them anymore...
I know Murphy, so if you can beat him, please let me know...

Aloysius wrote:

Vince, I would suggest NOT to go for a rifled choke unless you go for rabbithunting with the use of ferrets. Expensice FN's where made for that purpose (with a rifled fixed choke) and they helped to get a more open shotpattern. But even then is was hard to keep the choke clean... Think revolver: the (lead) bullet starts in a non-rifled chamber (the cylinder) and enters the forcing cone... where do you find most leading in the barrel? Right behind the forcing cone... now your 12 cal where the slug gets full speed in the barrel and then meets the rifling... and at the end: when you have removable chokes, what will happen to them? Or they unscrew or the screw much faster untill the cannot remove them anymore... I know Murphy, so if you can beat him, please let me know...

Thanks mate. The thought of a rifled choke has been on my mind for some time, but only if I can gain a bit more accuracy with slugs. However, I’m finding that I don’t shoot slugs very much at all these days, so I suppose it’s more a case of wanted, but not really needed. More a case of another toy to play with…so thinking about it now, I’ll give it a miss. I’m not into hunting with ferrets…them buggers bite nasty and it just ain’t nice.

That mongrel Murphy is always in the background. I’ve never had a problem (over thousands of rounds) with chokes loosening or sticking in the threads. What I do is use a little Loctite Anti Seize grease on the threads of the chokes (it’s silver in colour so I think it has an aluminium content) before screwing them into the barrel. This seems to work well and they never come loose, but release and unscrew with ease when I want to change them.

As for a build up of powder, lead and plastic residue, I initially swab the barrels with Ed’s Red (look it up online for the recipe to make it yourself). This helps break down the crud. I then use a bronze brush, initially by hand, but if necessary I put the cleaning rod into my battery powered drill and give it a good scrubbing that way…again with a liberal application of Ed’s Red. I finish up with Hoppes #9 just to make sure I’ve got everything out. I don’t always use a mop…I prefer individual flannelette patches, using each one only once, as it is easier to change them and not put grit and crud back into the barrels.

I reckon Murphy is real snarly with me because this regime seems to have him beaten.

flannelette patches can be turned over and poked back through mate...the grit on first side is then hidden fron gun...the Scottish heritage got me doing that one years ago and a spear jag makes it dead easy to do.

Vince, do you reload slugs for the cal 12? Then there are more ways to stabilize the flight without rifling. I've been told that the barrel of a canon on these big ships is not rifled, so a smoothbore can also hit targets...

I had the chance a few years ago to see inside a Battle Ship's 16 inch gun barrel. It had what looked like Ruger's "Micro groove" rifling.

Elvis wrote:

flannelette patches can be turned over and poked back through mate...the grit on first side is then hidden fron gun...the Scottish heritage got me doing that one years ago and a spear jag makes it dead easy to do.

I used to do that when in the Army mate…even got to the point of washing patches because of a shortage…but not these days. It’s surprising how many patches you can get out of a double bed flannelette sheet…even a worn sheet.

“Aloys” wrote:

Vince, do you reload slugs for the cal 12? Then there are more ways to stabilize the flight without rifling. I've been told that the barrel of a canon on these big ships is not rifled, so a smoothbore can also hit targets...

Yes I not only load them, I also cast them mate. I’ve found I get good accuracy (around 4” at 50m) and solid hitting power from the 1oz LEE Keyway slug from my smoothbore Fausti Stefano O/U. The thought of a rifled choke was really only a flash in the pan with me thinking I might be able to gain a bit more accuracy.

Bushy…I too have seen that mate…imparts plenty of spin to a shell for accuracy over 40+ kilometres. As an aside…most main battle tanks today have smoothbore barrels, and their level of accuracy is astounding, but I think most of their projectiles are fin stabilised.

Look, this is how "nuts" discuss things... you start with subsonic for hunting and you get wise things about rifled barrels and chokes, even about barrels of battle ships and tanks...

BTW: I've been told that they also had a kind of insert barrel for tanks that allows to shoot .30 ammo... a friend (a few years older than me) used that to shoot at crows when he was in the military... some people think about hunting all the time and they try to use everything that's available