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question on bullet weight
Big Game Hunting topics that dont fit other categories
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Grey_Wolf
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:41 pm    Post subject: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

We use 165 grain bullets in our 30:06's - Interlock, Partition, Ballistic Tip....
What weight bullet should I look for in the Barnes TSX, TTSX line? I've heard you should use a different weight bullet (usually lighter) when switching to all copper.

Similar question with the 6.5's. Usually use 129 grain LRAB or SST

Just thinking of availability and of switching things up for hoots and giggles. Also an excuse to spend more time at the range on load development. As of yet we do not have regulations against lead bullets for big game only migratory birds.
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

Grey_Wolf, the 30-06 case has a bit of excess capacity with modern powders so there is really no need to step down in weight like many do with the .308 Win, e.g., use 150gr for copper vs 165/168. Barnes are good bullets, but I would suggest considering CavityBackBullets.com 168 gr Tipped MKZ. I helped develop it and just loaded up a good supply for my son's 30-06. I used 168 SMKs as a practice round. The MKZ out expands all other copper bullets as well as the lead-core I've tested. It leaves a tri-star wound cavity that promotes hemorrhaging like no other bullet I've used or tested. I've shot two elk with his 6.8mm 105 MKZ and they caused more hemorrhaging than any of the .270 129gr LRX I've taken elk with. If you want to stick with Barnes, go with the 168 TTSX. The 165 TTSX is made for the 300 WinMag and will have a shorter COAL than typical for the 30-06. The TSX can expand a bit more than the TTSX but not the LRX and the higher BC of the TTSX will help carry KE out to longer distances.

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Grey_Wolf
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

Hey Jim thanks for the info. If you can figure out how to get them up here I'd sure give 'em a try. I like that they open up at a relatively low speed. Quite a bit lower than the Accubond if I remember right.
So no need to step down. That's good news cause I couldn't get 150's in other brands to group well. Would that also apply to the 6.5's? Shooting a 6.5 x 55 and a 6.5 Extreme wildcat (the 6.5 PRC is close to it) both with 129 grain bullets - no need to step down?
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

ok....if you go back 30 years to when monos first came out,the theory of dropping down weight was because they dont loose weight so you get similar preformance and penetration from a lighter weight...so get lower recoil and higher velocity as a BONUS....
but as time has gone by,and the hype has faded,reality has set in...it has now been tried n tested (many times by Slimjim) and faster =better because the faster they go,the better they open up.
you MIGHT find the 150 monos or even 130 monos will group better as the length of projectile will be similar to your normal projectiles...lighter material/less density = longer/greater mass/bigger
you could even drop right down to 110grns in 30/06 and still be good to go...but like anything in life there is a price to pay for running unleaded...you WILL NOT reguardless of hype n hooplah get the preformance at slower speeds you WILL NOT get the terminal preformance of a cup n core,its a matter of physics ,the old cup n core break up and impart heaps of shed bits,all making a big mess and breaking/bruising stuff...a projectile that holds together simply cannot do it the same way,no morethan a broadhead arrow can,it relies on cutting important stuff up to kill. smack animal in bony bits and it will help you out,hit it in rear lungs and you might be in for long tracking job...dont get me wrong,monos work,and in the wee .223 they really shine...but in the .270 they were rather vanilla, they killed ok..but nothing spectacular or better than normal cheap cup n core will do.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

actually reading your last line of your post again....its like steel shot to some extent....if you treat it the same as lead...used same pellet size at same velocity it SUCKED BIG TIME..... but if you speed it up and kept range close it works just as well.
not many people will try to sell you on using monos out past 200 yards.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

and slim me old mate...please...expands more than any bullet tested including lead....pull the other one Mate....a v max/amax will blow to bits,,a speer 130grn hp will explode a nosler ballistic tip will fragment and still drive base through,a partition always has and always will expand like stink and shed weight off front and the rear will continue onwards....
compare apples with apples.....



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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

thats 3 of same .45/70 projectiles and an excellent 50grn ttsx which has done perfect job of expanding as per its design.
two extremes of parameters the cast .45 was going really slow,as in 1200ish fps,the ttsx some 3k
I have container of recovered projectiles collected over the years,cup n core expand very well..always have and always will. now if you want extreme expansion with monos look at lehigh.....but hang on to your wallet as good does not come cheap.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

Elvis, I apologize for not doing a better job of choosing my words. Expansion should have been post-impact bullet diameter. To me, fragmentation is not expansion, e.g., not apples to apples. As a meat hunter, I prefer using copper bullets to avoid not to have lead fragments getting into my meat.

Note, though bullet manufactures sight minimum velocity for expansion, Kinetic Energy is what causes bullet expansion. I heavier bullet of the same construction will expand at a lower speed because it has more KE. Manufactures typically quote min expansion for their heaviest bullet. I've tested multiple weights of the TSX/TTSX bullets in .308 caliber. Because of the lower BCs of the lighter bullets, their velocity drops off faster down-range leaving less KE and resultant poorer expansion (post-impact bullet diameter). I gave up hunting with the 110 TTSX in my .270 and 130 TTSX in the .308/300WM for this reason.

The .224 copper bullets, especially in slow twist and shorter barrels do not expand much after 150 yards. I've had no issues taking elk, sheep, and pronghorn out to 500 yards with my .270. The only copper bullet that didn't exit and was recovered was stuck in a rib after penetration 36" from a quartering away impact.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

and yet the earlier graph you put up had the 110grn as being "the best" on paper out to 250-300 yards????????
it was what made me try them.
and I do not believe anyone should be trying to use .224 on anything needing a mono projectile out past 150 yards....I sure wouldnt be doing so with projectiles under 60 grns.....so would have to have super fast twist etc etc to have enough on paper energy to even try it.

shorter barrel has NOTHING to do with expansion.....but can effect velocity. if same projectile exits two barrels with same twist rate one is 16 inches and the other 30 inches long but both projectiles going same velocity the only difference is 14 inches closer to target..everything else is the same.

if you can still cleanly kill out to 500 yards with a mono...you are doing better than just about anyone else who uses them...not surprising considering how much testing you have done.
now how do you get 36" of penertration on an animal quartering away and end up with projectile stuck in rib???unless your initial impact was just forward of being a texus heart shot and travelling right through gut bag ???
Ive shot more than one animal up the arse with .270 winchester over the years and managed to reach vitals,but they sure as heck werent at more than 200 yards away.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

Elvis, I shot 3 turkeys this week with monos. I had one tom that I could never get close to or call in so I took my .224 Valkyrie 55 grain E-tips. It was 150 yard shot into the chest. It blew the back end out of the turkey. That is what a fast twist and 3400 fps mv will do for you. The other two were 50 yards with 125 grain MKZ from the anemic 300 BlackOut. Very little meat damage compared to the 55 grain at 150 yards. In both cases, I didn't have to be concerned with lead contamination in the meat.

I've taken multiple coyotes out to 380 yards with the Valkyrie and 55 Etips.

Barrel length does make a difference. The same round in a 24" .223 has 100 yards more effective range (with monos) than a 16" because of the increase muzzle velocity/KE. Even with the same twist, the bullet shot from the 24" has a faster rpm/more centrifugal force than from a 16" barrel.

The copper bullet I recovered was from an elk shot from my 270 Win that was 400 yards across a valley. It was broadside when I decided to pull the trigger but had stepped and turned away by the time the bullet arrived. The hunting gods were smiling upon me that day as the bullet traveled right through the center of the heart.

I agree, a lead-core bullet can have better terminal performance at very long ranges but few would penetrate as deeply or as straight as that mono did for me on that elk.



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Last edited by slimjim on Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

Grey_Wolf, since faster barrel twist creates more bullet expansion with copper bullets in the terminal phase, I would check your barrel twist. If you have a 1:10, you could consider stepping up to the 175 LRX. Otherwise, the 168 TTSX will serve you well. Sorry that the CavityBackBullets I suggest do not have an export capability. Happy Hunting.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: question on bullet weight Reply with quote

good stuff mate.you will see if re-read what has been written...I said the same thing about barrel length.....just worded differently.... its not the length of barrel that makes the bullet better,its the potential increased velocity you CAN get by using one.

interesting what you say about twist rates Vs terminal damage...I recall posing that question here about 5 years ago and bringing up the centrifugal force thing LOL.
my last two deer...both 2 year old reds,first was at about 250yards uphill,facing me...hit with cheap highland 130grn .270win went in centre chest and stopped on flank,ruined one forequarter with blood damage,it wasnt dead immidiately as projectile was too far to one side due to rushed shot (motorbikes had turned up out of nowhere spooking deer who fortunately ran across face above me,pausing long enough for me to shoot) so I lost maybe 1/5th of total meat and it was the lesser cuts,mince or stew.
deer the other day,50-70ish yards front on below me. in through neck out through flank ZERO meat loss,dont normally take neck meat.that one was hit with a very old school,very old projectile,a 170grn speer round nose no less.
its a bugga you cant export them cavity backs....they sound good...and if you say they ARE good...thats good enough for me Mate.

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