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.45/70
Hunting and discussion with Muzzle Loaders, Archery and other Primitive weapons
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:40 am    Post subject: .45/70 Reply with quote

well I HAD a thread here somewhere on my project...cant seem to locate it,so will just have to start AGAIN.
a while back I bought a blank .45 cal barrel a clever chap had made in back yard in lathe.... then fun started,gunsmith wouldnt chamber it for me....wrong diamention etc etc
so got mate to do it using boring bar in lathe on tiniest of angle,he then turned outside down to slip neatly into my old 12ga astra cyclope external hammer shotgun.
lots of playing around with loads ,lots of fun but no game taken as sights are crude at best,shotgun bead and shallow U by hammer....
black powder loads are a hoot to fire,very little recoil ,accurate enough to hit dinner plate at 50 yards,and a bit of smoke....
so last weekend got to try it out properly and fired four rounds for four VERY VERY dead wallabies....it just made then stop living instantly...very different from any other thing Ive killed then with,and Ive used all sorts over last 30 years... 395grn flat point cast projectiles.... terminal preformance is diferent from anything Ive previously seen...no bruising at all,just a hole about 1" in diameter wit hnothing in it....just a cavity,like someone has plunged a coresampler through animal.....
so after using two smokeless and two BP rounds came home happy chappy and cleaned rifle.....the black powder sure is dirty...which leads to next phase of experiment..duplex loads.
I already have a good 45grns of 2208 smokless load sorted,that should be giving me ABOUT 1600fps
reading up if I place a few grains of smokeless powder under the black smelly stuff it should make load much cleaner...I cant fit full 70 grains of home rolled BP in case as it is so overload wont be an issue.... 65 grains is most Ive managed to fit,with much compaction,so thinking useing 1grn smokeless to 3 grns black..... if I poke 3-4-5 grns 2219 (cause ive got full pottle wont use for anything else) under 50 of black powder it should still be in similar pressure range etc.
ADI list 2219 in data for 45/70 so its not an out there powder to use.

now have any of you fells who load BP had corrosion issues on primers with verdigrises forming???
I had 2 loads with it..one just wouldnt ignite,the other did on 2nd hit of primer,didnt effect accuracy as that one headshot wallaby LOL. well maybe a little as was aiming at chest steeply downhill at 30 ish yards.
currently running winchester magnum primers as whats on hand,but have a few CCI LR which are silver/chrome so maybe less likely to corrode...thoughts???



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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:41 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

thats the hefalump gun insert on right....
410 insert next in...
short 410 /45lc next
and finally a Paul inspired redneck 410 adaptor,boy was my engineer mate shocked when he saw that one LOL.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

AWESOME!
I have been thinking of doing the same but Oz laws do not look kindly in this type of activity.

45/70 is my favorite caliber, but I do not think this belongs in "Primitive weapon" Very Happy

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
AWESOME!
I have been thinking of doing the same but Oz laws do not look kindly in this type of activity.

45/70 is my favorite caliber, but I do not think this belongs in "Primitive weapon" Very Happy

Oh, I reckon it’s about as primitive as it gets for a modern type firearm mate.

Well done Elvis…you are showing some good innovation with your loads mate…but, BE CAREFUL!!!

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:26 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

she is primative,,,,getting old,well the astra cyclope sure is,I remember going into police station with Dad to get permit to percure...so it MUST have been at least 40 plus years ago
the cartridge is old.....using cast projectiles and home rolled Black powder MUST just about push it into primative bracket...and no scope or proper irons definately scream primative to me......
havent heard anyone else pipe up about corrosion on primers so are guessing I better clean cases better before reloading them up,and will try the nickle finish ones at same time...by all accounts BP takes LESS to ignite than smokeless,which surprised me no end.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

hope this works



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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

woohooo now that image has been around in true Elvis style...I took it on my cellphone,txted it to a mate who did the machining foe me...he posted it on another forum...and I just now worked out how to save image from there and repost here LOL...

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

different sort of a day out
Well folks,life takes some interesting twists n turns.
A couple of years ago I thought needed to scratch itch with black powder,so bought blank barrel off @ homebrew .357 and got another great fella to do some magic in lathe so it fits into an old single barrel shotgun...chambered for the mighty old 45/70 WHY... same reason a dog licks its bits...because it can.
I bought some dies,some great big hunks of lead shaped into wonderful projectiles from @Shootersnz and even got really keen and followed recipe to home roll some smelly black propellant .....
with crude shotgun sights accuracy was definately challenging but consistantly within 6" from where aiming at 50 yards made me confident it was feasable to take animal with it.....the last 12mths havent seen the "hefalump gun" taken out much,did try for wallabies one sunny day ,fired a few rounds but no joy,the only hopper who sat still all day and Meg planted herself in between us!!!!!!
anyway...last weekend a good mate went for a wander in local spot and said he had seen half dozen wallabies some within 10 yards...
so I got my crap together and took bow for a walk...managed to break 4 broadheads,got one wallaby,but the delay in kill just didnt do it for me....got home and put bow up for sale... @Finnwolf found a buyer for it....
anyway..back on topic...
Today,got up,had breakfast,grabbed hefalump gun and away we went,back to same spot. got to carpark at 11 am and started hoofing it up hill,saw wallaby below track in the broadleaf at 20 yards,fanned back hammer,put bead centremass to try for spine and let rip...45grns smokeless powder from ADI and 400grn projectile did the rest...my wallaby simply died.... no other way to decribe it,it just died,didnt kick,didnt hop just fell over brown bread......WOW...that was easy. took photo and carried on with ears in pocket.
got up into open stuff,nothing doing as more people up ahead making racket..sat and had a wee break,then thought to self, bugger it lets try a sneaky wee stalk on clearing but approach from below...so into mousy mode I go, racing ashley gummies down into low low box and creap along.
into first wee clearing,spot wallaby through matagouri,confirm with binos...yes its 10-15 yards away but binos confirm...up and fire,CLICK..DAMN recock hammer CLICK...bugga bugga bugga,open action,drop metal rod down barrel to eject round, pick up and put in pocket,reload yip wally still there only moved 5 yards,wind is right and wearing camo BOOMFA. 60 grns of black powder in that round...spectacular,and there is a tail twitching in tussocks,again it simply died, opened hid up to have a look at terminal damage,it is weird...just a 1 inch hole with nothing in it...nothing at all,like someone has taken a core sample....
carried on and managed to bush stalk around for half hour before spotting another hopper this one about 40 yards away,it too just died on the spot.... the fourth and last one of day was steeply below me at about 30 yards,again my BP load didnt fire but on second drop of hammer away she went...I thought first BP round looked good,in dark bush it was really spectacular,wally dissapeared head over heels backwards...I get down there and round has entered side of nose/mouth and exited behind neck..not messy,just VERY dead.
get further down track and spot big black/grey blob ahead,through light vegetation screen,it looks like a wallaby,but what way is it facing???is it just base of tree??? nah looks right very round,move slightly to see better and FALLOW DEER stands up and off it goes..... umm THAT WASNT part of the plan..chuckle to self,my own fault for putting binos back in bag instead of keeping them out for ID....
so that was my day...4 shots four kills and Im as happy as a pig in poohs with results...it prooves the hefalump gun will be feasable for deer on wet shitty day....looking forward to seeing how @Seventy Six gets on with his.



SO HERE IS STORY to go with image...just because I CAN

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

Quite the project! "Black" powder is always fun, just messy. I have always been afraid of the idea of mixing smokeless with black powder. Like you, I also hated the constant cleaning from black powder residue. I had tried a black powder substitute called "Clean Shot" quite a few years ago with poor results. The granules varied from kernels to dust in the same canister. Cleaning was a breeze, but velocity was inconsistent, sometimes well over 100 fps between shots. I finally gave up on it and continued as usual until Hodgdon came out with Triple 7. Wonderful stuff.
In my Pedersoli .50 caliber Rolling Block muzzle loader (1-24" twist) 350-grain Power Belt and 300-grain cast flat nose bullets with sabots shoot into 1-1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards at an average of 1,700 fps with Triple 7. Plenty good enough for deer in my neck of the woods. Those loads do jolt the shoulder though!
As to the corrosion, I see it around the nipple area, clean it thoroughly after each use and watch it very closely. I'm assuming the primers (shotgun primers) are as corrosive as the old percussion caps. Surprising since I would think the same would be seen from regular shot shells if that were the case. The rest of the bore only requires a cleaning just as you would a centerfire rifle and a light oiling.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

I've been hunting primarily black powder seasons since 1986, I've had alot of experience with guns, loads, and powders.

777 was one of the worst preforming BP substitutes I've ever tried. I was getting 10" groups at 100. When i threw in the towel, I switched back to pyro and my next 3 shot group was touching. I gave up and gave away my remaining powder.

I'm currently trying to get BH209 to behave, thus far it is not the golden child fans make it out to be. Its every bit as filthy as Pyro and requires swabs between shots. Its theoretically not damaging to barrels so its not meant to be cleaned often... but I found its Extremely hydroscopic and I've found rust on my breech if I didnt clean it immediately after a shooting session.

My last trip out (this past saturday) with a new smokepole and 100gr BH209 (by weight), first shot was 5" high, 4" left. Not bad for first ever shot. Second shot... who knows, never hit the 24x24" target. I think high and further right. I adjusted left 4" and down 3". Next shot was in the dirt below the target. Adjusted back up 3" and that next shot was top of target. I gave up at that point... its almost definitely a bad scope (came in a kit with the gun), and i've already replaced it with a new vortex.

Smokepoles are alot of fun for sure... but maddening when they misbehave. Of all the powders I've tried over the years, pyrodex RS has been the most consistent in terms of accuracy. Its dirty stuff, requires swabs between shots with a lightly damp patch of windex, but its consistant.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

Just shows why you have to experiment. Not all rifles like the same loads and powders. Just like cartridge rifles.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

Interesting! 777 (loose powder and pellets), with Powerbelt bullets, gave us about 1.5" groups at 100 yds from two Encore .50 MLs. It also appears that it would work for blanks in the Civil War repro muzzle loaders we used for reenacting. Haven't tried it in the .45-70.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

My primers are magnum rifle...not shotgun..... so that rules that one out....
Im starting to think I didnt clean cases well enough and it was corrosion from previous load just increasing...
will try the few std CCI LR I have left and see if issue pops up again....
Im almost tempted to purchase a long section of piccy rail and tape it firmly in place to fit small scope just to see how accurate this thing could be.... I did have head of pop rivit in the groove on action for awaile, could use as aperture of use groove on top as opens..... I prefer the simplicity of it bare.maybe sort ghost ring somehow.....have thought one of the micro rod beads on front might be ok...being bigger than the bead and glowing may help in dim light,sort of backwards step in precision in same step.... cant be worse than chunky handgun sights and 28" barrel surely gives enough sight radius.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:16 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

I don't do competition, but here are BP-matches where you're not allowed to clean between shots. A friend solved this problem for his Sharps in 45-120 by putting a fat-pill of about 1/4" between powder and bullet. It keeps all foaling soft so he can keep on shooting without cleaning.
That could also help Elvis's problem. I also noticed BP corroding the brass cases with as result the formed salts fixing the bullet that much that the case-mouth was ruined. Maybe the BP is acting as a medium for electrolytical corrosion between the brass case and the lead bullet. When that's the reason, such a fat-pill separating BP and lead bullet might solve the problem.
I made it a habit to put a beer-card, sucked with molten fat/wax-mixture and afterwards cut at size, between powder and bullet... (a method discribed in the loading-procedure of the Parker Hale Volunteer) it doesn't harm and sure it will extra protect the bullet against the hot gasses. And when some Englishman did find it necessairy to write this procedure down for the Parker Hale... I don't have to re-invented things that have been proven themselves in the past...

so: a lot of "new" stuff to test and try to make us all very smart by the time everyone else starts calling us old

remember the young bull asking the old one to see who can "get" the first cow? The old bull answered: "Take it easy and let's get them all..." Smile
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: .45/70 Reply with quote

WALLABY Jerky is primo eating.......just demolished 3 pieces,,,boy its hard to stop...

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