#1: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:25 am ---- ... Sierra's 125 grain hollow point, .308 diameter # 2020 bullet in a CZ-52. This is a heavy bullet for the little cartridge. I have loaded some, I have not shot them yet.
The bullet has a large, soft, exposed hollow point. It was designed for the .30-30 to use on deer sized game. I've had to seat the bullets pretty deep so that they will clear inside the magazine. I seem to still have a good seal around the case mouth and the bullets are held firmly in place.
I've backed down on the powder charge to where I'm guessing I have just enough ooomph to work the slide. (Guessing after years of succesful reloading and careful practices). I have found no data for a bullet this heavy in the caliber.
Primary initial use for this loading is nothing more than comparison shots on wet catalogues. IF the bullet shows indications of expansion and or accuracy, I'll try loading more with heavier charges.
I won't list any charge weights here for fear of them being mistaken for an endorsement. I'm interested in input or thoughts about the bullet's possibilities in this specific caliber and gun.
#2: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: Dimitri, Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:38 pm ---- Interesting idea, that load is pretty heavy compared to the issue load of 85-grs I belive, I wonder if you'd end up getting a subsonic or near subsonic round. Don't know much about the round so I dont know what to tell you execpt use a section of a cleaning rod to make sure there is nothing to get stuck in the barrel of the handgun
Goodluck and post your progress.
#3: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: Bushmaster, Location: Ava, MissouriPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:27 pm ---- Be very careful. And watch for a stuck bullet about 1/2 way down the barrel...Just be careful...
#4: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: gelandangan, Location: Sydney AustraliaPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:03 pm ---- Gidday 4rum
Your 7.62x25 sounds like my 300 whisper (.308 dia bullet in expanded 221-fireball case). I use up to 240gn woodleigh bullet on it and it prints about 1 inch at 100 meters with 7.5gn of W231. I have used 130gn sierra hollow points on 16.5gn of AR2205 to get to 1800fps and it shoots about 1.5 inches group at 100 meters. My rifle have a 1 in 8 twist 24 inches MAB barrel on a CZ mini mauser action.
The 300 whisper works like a charm on goats but I have yet to shoot at larger animals.
I hope this helps.
#5: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:31 pm ---- Thanks everyone for the input and especially the cautions. Shows you are a conscientous group, I appreciate that.
This is a project I'm looking into for one of my CZ52 semi-auto handguns. I have good loading data for 85 and 90 grain bullets. The 125 is a heavier bullet, but I'm looking into the expansion capabilities at short yardage. The bullets design may let it open appreciably even at the velocities I will be able to generate from the 4" inch barrel handgun.
Thank everyone once again for their concerns of safety. I am very safety conscious myself and will use precautions. The starting load is mild, but I feel it will not leave the bullet in the barrel. I wanted to start low just for safties sake, I'll worry about feed, function, stabalization due to twist and such later. First I want to make the gun/round run... safely.
#6: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: gelandangan, Location: Sydney AustraliaPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:03 pm ---- 4rum, if you are loading for subsonic, make sure that you are starting HIGH and work your way down. AND check your barrel after every shot so that if the bullet did stuck you won't get in trouble.
I don't know of any .30 cal bullet that would expand reliably at subsonic speed. Therefore to ensure energy transfer, I opt for longer heavier bullet in the hope that they would cut sideways when tumbling and enlarge the hole. I find that the more unstable the bullet (heavier at the back) the better it would tend to tumble. I tried this with wetted phone directories. I hope it would give me some parallelism in the gameflesh.
#7: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:52 pm ---- Let me clarify a little.
I know that ballistics and or loading data cannot be reliably interpolated. It is a science of test, examine, test, test, test... preferably under controled conditions. My interest here lies with a particular bullet.
The CZ52 was introduced to operate with the 85 to 87 grain roundnose full metal jacket. It feeds and functions very well with this bullet. Sierra makes a wonderful little 85 grain round nose soft point which feeds and functions just as well and gives me mediocer expansion. (Shot into various media for comparison only. No tissue examples).
The Sierra 125 grain hollow point was designed especially for Whitetail deer out to 150 to 200 yards. It is produced with a large hollow cavity and lots of exposed soft lead. Inside, however, is a harder lead core to aid in penetration.
I'm hoping that if the bullet will expand at 200 yards with the remaining velocity of a .30-30, that it will expand at 5 to 10 yards from the stock CZ52 handgun.
The reason for loading light was for safety, as I have not seen any data for bullets heavier than 110 grains. I am loading below that in charge weight for safety only, not to attain or achieve any sonic levels.
There are several things to consider. Would this bullet, if reliable make a better (not great or perfect... better) home defense loading for the CZ52? The round has to be shot to begin to answer. I want to do that as safely as I can.
The 125 grain bullet is long for this round to fit into the magazine. I have seated it deep enough to load well into the magazine. It seems to still grip the bullet firmly, just on the cusp of the ogive. Thus the first hurdle is hopefully resolved. Next it has to operate the pistol. With the light powder charge it may not, but I'm not going to worry about that till I check for pressure signs and make decisions whether or not to up the powder charge. The charge I have chosen is in the bottom of listed loads for the 110 grain bullet. I feel safe loading the 125 grain to these pressure levels. All three of my CZ52's are of the 'unissued' quality. They show no wear or damage in any respect. They are in good repair and appear in near perfect condition.
I'm not in a hurry. This is a 'think and do' project. I won't accept poor results in ANY facet of this. To be useful, a round has to be reliable. I don't have a chronograph. I don't know what velocity I'll achieve. It really doesn't matter if the bullets perform well and are at least of acceptable short range accuracy. (Say from my secure position behind the bed to mid room).
In short ...ahem... this is not a hunting round. My interest lies solely in the possibility of a safe, more effective, reliable pistol/cartridge combo than any I can buy commercially, for the CZ52.
I've poked around on the boards. I have not seen a loading for this bullet in this caliber. There may be good reason. It may not work!
#8: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: gelandangan, Location: Sydney AustraliaPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:21 am ---- OOPS!!!
I forgot.. heheh... Daymn!!! I actually own a CZ52 (in .32 Auto) hehe.. IT IS A PISTOL!!!! GOsh.. been always talking rifles in this forum I forgot that CZ52 is a pistol.. Now it is my turn to shove my foot into my mouth
Okay.. there is BIG difference from what I am thinking about. And it is nowhere similar to the 300 whisper
Since CZ52 is a pistol of about 4" barrel (mine is a 4.5incher to be legal in this land of OZ) yes, most load would be about transsonic velocity. I reckond as long as the velocity is high enough bullets made for PISTOL cartridges should expand reliably.
4rum, I do not think loading this pistol with higher than designed projectile is wise. You may generate very high pressure against the thin barrel wall. Until they make proper (100% factory model) replacement sparepart for your bodyparts you better stick with the smaller 80 - 100 gn projectile.
If you talk defense (which I know nothing about - since I am living in Oz and here we are not allowed to use our toys for defense) I think that it is better to use lighter pellets many times accurately (coz lighter pellet gives less recoil) than one great pellet which may or may not hit accurately and then fight the big recoil. Thus with many holes, the target should be more prone to fail functioning. Although a big wallop in the right place maybe would do the job better (viz. 45ACP in 1911 against the .38 in Phillipine), but could you guarantee the accuracy under pressure? Using a larger handgun may help, but the CZ52 is quite a small and light gun.
In Police Service Pistol Match here, we got to shoot a target 10 yards away with 12 rounds within 15 seconds (including reloading) shooting from below the shoulder unsighted. Because there is something called "Power Factor" we have to load the gun with "hot" load to make the power factor in "restricted" match. In "unrestricted" match, we do not worry about the power factor.
I find that using my S&W686 .357magnum, light bullet (a 75gn hollow cored butt nosed wadcutter at 800fps) I could easily place the whole 12 rounds in the X ring (about 2 inches diameter). I could not say the same with the full load (135gn BNWC at 1100fps) the recoil would send the muzzle waaay up to be able to do a quick follow up.
So ther is my 2 cents.
#9: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:39 pm ---- Thanks Gelan;
I agree with you. I have a load with the Sierra 85 gr. (It actually expands better than the 90 gr XTP in my trials). The 'tinkering' with the 125 is just one of those ideas that does have possibilities. There is good data for the 110 grain short jacket. Again my interest lies in a VERY large cavity with LOTs of soft exposed lead.
Your cautions are well noted. I agree with those points also. I do have other defense weapons. My choice is a 12 guage.
#10: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: atmmech96, Location: Peoples Republic of MarylandPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:11 pm ---- Let us know what happened with the 125's. I've got a 52 in 7.62x25 that I use when my flashlight gives out.The muzzle blast is somethingto see at duskwith Mil surp. I'm looking for a load that I can use that transfers most of the energy to the target. The 125's could be real interesting. Kyle
#11: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:38 pm ---- atmmech96;
I have some loaded. The bullets are seated pretty deep to clear in the magazine. I'm just waiting for weather right now. I just want to see if they will expand any better than other styles and weights of bullets I'm loading now. Then I will check accuracy and work up a load that I feel comfortable with.
#12: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: atmmech96, Location: Peoples Republic of MarylandPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:05 pm ---- Where did you find the 85's and 110's? I've got some brass now and I wouln't mind tring to get a load set up for the 52. I'm also looking for another barrel, mine is getting pretty shabby due to lots of use. Thanks, Kyle
#13: Re: Thoughts on 7.62X25 with... Author: 4rum, Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:02 am ---- Midway has everything you need. I ordered Starline brass, Hornady .90 grain XTP's and Sierra 85 grain softpoint. (.308 diameter). I'm usning Winchester small pistol primers (standard) I'm currently loading my 'worked up' load with the Sierra softpoint, it expands much better in wet catalogues. When 'calving' time comes the neighbor usually loses a Charolais heffer or two, that's where I do my tissue comparisons.
I'm currently loading at very near Sierra's maximum listed load for the 85 grain bullet and Unique powder.
You may want to slug your barrel, mic the slug and determine your bore diameter. Some run larger. All three of mine mic at .307. If you have a pistol with a larger bore, you may want to try some of the 71 grain bullets, but they are a larger diameter (.311 or .312 I think). They are normally loaded in .32 auto and like calibers.
I'm VERY familiar with the muzzle blast of these little powerhouses. My CZ52's get a lot of respect at the range. We have a length of well casing at 200 yards... I don't hit it every time, but when I do, I'l always amazed at the flight time of the little 85's. It don't take them long to get there!