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Powder Dippers
Hunting and discussion with Muzzle Loaders, Archery and other Primitive weapons
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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

I'm sure I aint the only one who has tried this .. I did it with FFFg , but shud be the same for other granulations .. Remember we're talking bulk here . I filled the following cases then dumped in my BP powder measures to git a reading ..

38 special 25.5

357 magnum 28.0

45 acp 27.8

44 magnum 40.0

45 colt 46.0

Also out of curiosity I threw them on the balance scale , for actual weights , they were anywhere from .1 to .5 + or - of the bulk figures ..

Jack

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

HUH??? Jack...Need more information. What are we trying to accomplish? Somehow my feeble brain missed the point. Confused

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Hes using empty cases to quickly scoop up a load of black powder, which is always measured by volume. I used to have some old 30-06 cases cut down to always scoop out the same volume amount of powder when shooting.


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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Yeah Bushy yur brain is feeble , I understand , but , not to worry , I'm getting there ..
It's like this , IF you fill the 44 mag case with BP , the weight will be 40.0 grains , The BP substitutes , such as Pyrodex or Goex clean shot are loaded by volume , not weight .. So a full case of substitute will have the same volume as 40.0 of BP , tho the actual weight of the substitute will be more or less than 40.0 tho not by very much ..
Jack

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Funny Jack, but my charging measure is calibrated in "grains". I usually charge my front stuffer with 90 grains of GOEX Blackpowder over a 180 grain .490 patched round ball...I always thought. So I just metered out some at a setting of 90 on my metering charger. Then weighed it on my RCBS (Pact) electronic scale...Hummmm...It weighs 93.5 +/- .2. That tells me that blackpowder is measured and charged by grains for loading in my T/C Hawken .50 cal. I then went to the loading manual that came with my .50 cal and found the same thing. Loads from 40 grains to 120 grains (not by volume). I think we need to go back and explain this again...I have been hearing about various powders being measured by volume for years and never seen anything but grains listed when measuring and charging front stuffers or cartridge firearms...

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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

You are correct Bushy BP is measured in grains .. However if you have one of those little brass powder measures , and take that 44 mag case and fill the 44 case to the top it will hold 40.0 grains of BP according to the brass dohickey .. It will most likely weigh real close to 40 grains .
HOWEVER , if your using a BP substitute , you do not load it by weight , you load it by it's equivalent BP volume .. A 44 mag case full of BP substitute will register 40 grains in yur litl brass dohickey , and give darn near same performance as the equivalent BP charge , but it will not weigh 40 grains , my 44 case full of Goex Clear Shot , shows 40.0 grains in the brass dohickey , but weighs on the scale 35.0 grains ..
Is why it's said to load the substitute by it's equvalent BP volume , not weight ..
Jack

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Hummm...I see...I tried Pyrodex several years ago and had to almost double the charge to get the same velocity as BP. Have they improved the other substitutes. Or is Blackpowder still better charge for charge?

"Dohickey"??? Oh...You mean my adjustable charging measure. Yeah. It's made of brass with a sliding, graduated, adjustable, ect, ect...

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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Yep we're talking about the same "dohickey" ..
I tried Pyrodex and didnt like it , I use the Goex Clear Shot , it's only $10 per pound , while the Pyrodex RS is $14.95 and Pyrodex select is $19.95 per pound ..
I like BP better myself , but it's getting really difficult to find here ..
Jack

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Yup...Know what you mean. It's damn near impossible to get here in the USSRofC...I run blackpowder down from Oregon when I go up to visit the boys and they will spirit a pound or two down with them When they visit the ol' man...

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Black Powder or Black Powder substitutes are all measured by volume. This is more critical when you talk Pyrodex that is really "fluffy" compared to Black so while a volume amount might be the same between them, the actual weight can be dramatically different.


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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Funny...Not according to my T/C .50 cal Hawken manual. Blackpowder is measured by grains and my powder charging measure is graduated in grains. From 0 to 150 grains...As I use only Blackpowder and my measure is setup by the company in grains. And I have been shooting this particular rifle for 25 years loading premeasured 90 grain loads that give me 1,900 fps. Maybe everyone else's manual says "by volume". Mine don't...And it has no mention of volume...

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
Funny...Not according to my T/C .50 cal Hawken manual. Blackpowder is measured by grains and my powder charging measure is graduated in grains. From 0 to 150 grains...As I use only Blackpowder and my measure is setup by the company in grains. And I have been shooting this particular rifle for 25 years loading premeasured 90 grain loads that give me 1,900 fps. Maybe everyone else's manual says "by volume". Mine don't...And it has no mention of volume...

From Hodgdons website (section under "Using Triple 7 and Pyrodex"):

Quote::
All charges of Triple Seven or Pyrodex should be measured by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable blackpowder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME


The "volume" standard was indeed first created using Black Powder. 90grns weight took up X amount of volume (I dont know what type of black was used in this... FF?, FFF? FFFF?). This standard was then agreed on and other companies making NON-Black powder substitutes comply with the volume measure.

90 grns by volume of Black Powder does not come close to 90grns of Pyrodex by volume on a scale... Pyrodex is lighter. Hodgdon themselves clearly give their feelings on using weight to measure pyrodex with the following symbol on their website:



This from an article where they just completed testing using 777 and pyrodex in traditional volume charge throwers (they tested detonation, static and overall saftey for using 777 or Pyro in standard powder throwers.

So to recap: Yes if you are shooting standard FF Black Powder 90grns of volume probably is right at 90grns by weight. This isnt true however when you move into other substitutes where weight is different. Is your manual 25 years old as well? I dont remember when Pyrodex really burst on the scene and perhaps your manual pre-dates substitutes comming on the scene.


PS: Heres another snippet I just found on another website talking about it:

Quote::
Pyrodex is the most common "black powder substitute." It is really the only synthetic black powder "performance" substitute in common use. By performance substitute, I refer to a charge of loose powder measure by volume. A 100 grain volumetric charge of Pyrodex RS (Rifle/Shotgun) is very close in performance to Goex FFg black powder.

There are differences, though, and this is where things get a bit convoluted. Pyrodex is bulkier, another way of saying "less dense." By weight, it is more powerful than Goex black powder. But, the traditional method of measuring black powder is indeed by volume, so in that sense it is a black powder performance substitute.

By actual weight, it is not the same. 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by weight. Pyrodex is where confusion can start to set in, as the standard "F" designations of powder coarseness start to go out the window.

Pyrodex "Select," formulated for use in muzzleloading rifles, is touted as an "extremely consistent" grade of Pyrodex, and has the largest grain size of them all. It is even farther away from black powder by actual weight; 100 grains volumetric equals about 63.9 grains by actual weight.


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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

I played with Pyrodex when it first came out and I too can't remember when that was but it was a few years back and my Hawken was still pretty new. I had to almost double charge using Pyrodex to get some where near 1,800 to 1,900 fps. Decided then that this rifle was designed after the old rifles of the 1830's and Blackpowder is what they used...So be it. I prefer Blackpowder anyway...And I can still get it...I use FFG...

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
I played with Pyrodex when it first came out and I too can't remember when that was but it was a few years back and my Hawken was still pretty new. I had to almost double charge using Pyrodex to get some where near 1,800 to 1,900 fps.

If you were weighing each charge that would be understandable. By volume they are pretty close to the same velocity (I've tested over a crony)


Quote::
Decided then that this rifle was designed after the old rifles of the 1830's and Blackpowder is what they used...So be it. I prefer Blackpowder anyway...And I can still get it...I use FFG...

My T/C Hawkin was bought in 1974 so both of ours sound like the came from the same period. I bought a fast twist Green Mt Barrel a couple years ago (1/28" twist) and man is that thing accurate. Conicals or Sabots it will hold < 3" groups all day long (swabbing between shots). If I'm shooting well I've held closer to 2" groups.

Rifles are fun but my passion is smokepoles... as you can guess Smile


-DallanC


Last edited by DallanC on Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Powder Dippers Reply with quote

When I was younger an old codger taught me how to range load all day long without swabbing the barrel between shots. Because you are going to cap (mine is set up for caps. It was too wet in the Northwest to use flint lock) and shoot as soon as you have recharged and seated the ball. His trick? Was to spit on the greased patch and place the wet side to the powder charge, stack the ball on top and ram it home. At the range I have never swabbed a barrel. Mine is as acurate as my .30-30 Winchester at 100 yards. That's to stay inside a 3" dot. This is with a patched round ball.....Now I'm the old codger...

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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