CCW and the employer

chambered221 · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: CCW and the employer

Recent discussions at work have lead co-workers and my self to try and search for anything dealing with self-defense in the work place.

Our employer, a major corporation and union shop, has a shop rule that prohibits firearms anywhere on the property, period.

Those of us who have our CCW’s obviously disagree with this shop rule.

In all of our searching we have found a lot of work place violence but nothing that deals with our rights to defend ourselves being taken away.

Has any company ever been sued for a wrongful death ?
Has anyone ever challenged these type of shop rules ?
How is it you can be cleared in a justified shooting and still lose your job ?
Why does a company rule trump a state or federal law ?
Why do they get to make the rules for what we see as a public place ?

Obviously these questions aren’t so easily answered but thought it would make for a good discussion here !!!

SwampFox · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

221,
This was the subject of a recent statute atempt in Florida. If you have a state issued permit, the employer can not preempt the state's authority. Unfortnately the antis got the populace all worked up with misdirection. "The state is trying to tell property owners what they can and can not decide to do with their own property" or business, etc., etc. The statute failed to pass.

As an employer and as a CWP holder I understand both sides of the situation very well. I do not have a "can not carry rule" but sometimes I wonder about my folks, especially on Monday morning. Very Happy

The worst example of this situation I know of is the convinence stores that get held up on a regular basis and the employees are prohibited from carry by all of the stores. Course the clerks get killed a lot more frequently than I think is necessary also.

If my family member worked there I would want them armed.
Best,
Ed

chambered221 · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

The Florida issue was what got this started !!!

Vince · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Out here in Australia the No Carry rule would stand because, under the Occupational Health and Safety Legislation, an employer has an obligation to provide a safe and healthy workplace for all of its employees.

This obligation covers such things as employee training, safety lectures issue of Personal Protection Equipment as necessary and Rules for dealing with harassment (sexual and physical) and discrimination in the workplace. It can also mean the provision of Security Staff where applicable or necessary.

But still....if one employee decides to "off" another employee, then no amount of Rules and Regulations is gonna stop it from happening...just means that the employer will be help at least partially responsible if he hasn't met his obligations.

Cheers, Vince

PaulS · Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Your employer can fire you if you carry a firearm against published rules in the employee handbook.
On the other hand if you are robbed or injured on the property you can then sue your employer for failing to protect you when he took your protection away.
Check your state laws (local too) to see if it is legal to keep your gun in your car - concealed and car locked. Your emp[loyer cannot take away your right to keep the gun in your car if it is legal.
You might try talking with your boss about how he intends to protect you in the case of violence which endagers your life or limb..... and let him know that you are concerned enough to doubt he can. Let him know that you would rather be able to defend yourself.
If that is received well then get him to sign a note saying that the company is responsible for your safety at work - then you can sue for negligence if anything happens. (or your next of kin can)

Handloader · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Great discussion with valid points on both sides of the issue. To me the seminal issue is the acceptance of the state's standing to determine that one can carry concealed. My belief is that any citizen by definition should be allowed to make that decision without oversight by the state. At least in a free country. But, I also believe that private owners of business have the expressed right to prohibit firearms on their premises. If you don't agree, don't work or patronize that business.

There is another side of the story that puts the theoretical into some perspective. This year I have had four loaded handguns pointed at me in the gun shop where I work and all have been pointed by those that are CCW qualified. Idiots. These were unintentional situations and done without malice, but, a bullet so dischared doesn't understand intent. Those stupid individuals are no longer welcomed within our store. And that was just me; overall, there have been a dozen loaded presentations this year alone. Last year, 17. Talking to other shops, similar reports are common.

Now, the sign has been made larger and posted on both sides of the entry door. "No loaded firearms allowed." I believe an employer has the right to make such decisions for their private businesses much as individuals seeking employment can choose employers with a different viewpoint. As an employee I am given the option to carry open or concealed and encouraged to carry which may account for a 27 year history of doing business without an armed robbery.

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Vince, we also have occupational health and safety standards that employers must follow.
But, as you’ve stated no rule or law is going to stop a disgruntled employee or a would be attacker.

Talking to a boss about subjects like this is a joke. The most common answer is “ that’s up to your union and management “

Handloader, I’d love to take my pay, benefits and health care package and go to work for someone else. But that’s not how it works.
I like the money I make and being able to provide the necessary needs plus a little more for the family. ( we are not rich but some people think we are )
So for now I’ll go along with their rules even though I don’t like them!!!!

Bushmaster · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

If I have the right to demand that you keep your firearms off my property and out of my house I think the owner/employer has the same right. It is his property. However...With that said...I'm not in total agreement with my own statement...It's hard to determine who will go bizzurk at the work place and who won't...I've spent most of my working life as a supervisor and in some situations I have felt that a fire arm was almost needed, but was avoided by negociation. The firearm probably would have esculated the problem by the necessity of notifying the cops. I've had employees take a wrench after another employee. I can just amagin what would have occured if one of them had a firearm on his person...Intervention time would have been cut real short...

Unless you work on a military installation, I see no reason why you can't keep your weapon in your car, parked on his property. I really don't care if he doesn't like it. He has to search my car to find it and I have never had an employer do that to me. Unless someone snitches on you, the employer has no reason or time to do random searches. If you let someone see or know that you keep a weapon in your car. That is your fault and you are asking for a search of your vehicle. "Concealed is concealed". Also...Background checks do tend to remove most of the "hot heads" from carrying concealed...

By the way...If you come to my house...Bring your weapon and we will pop a few caps on my range...

Any disagreements to the above statement must be submitted to my "Social Director" in writting and in triplicate... Very Happy

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Two points I see reoccurring here and other places when this topic is discussed.

First is the property issue.
When you employ well over 3,000 people in one plant, it’s a given that you‘ll encounter the same misfits and psychos that walk through the doors of any small business or shop in your city or town.
I've worked in the same department with a guy that did 5 years for armed robbery.

What I feel is needed is a ruling that defines public spaces.
Then we can fight for our rights to carry in those places.

Second is the issue of locking your guns in your vehicle while at work.
I guess that’s good for your travel time, but what about while your working.

About 6 years ago I worked next to a guy who had some mental issues. He also made threats to kill some co-workers.
Guess what ? He had more rights than I or my co-workers. Management and the union both tried having him removed from the work place. Their attempts failed. There’s a law for the mentally challenged that says something to the fact, because he was under a doctors care.

If this guy decided he didn’t like me one day, what good is my gun when it’s locked up in my truck !!!

dust54 · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

This is a hard one for both sides. WE have the God given right to protect ourselves and our property, that is self evident (God gave us the instict to protect ourselves). The property owner does have the legal right (given by the government) to protect his/her property. So we have the clash of who is right!! God trumps government in my mind, so I would find a way to carry some sort of protection (taser, collapsible night stick or mace). I have carried the collapsible night stick in government buildings with the guards inspecting the stick and not saying a word.

Bottom line: this is one to be agrued about by folks more learned than I.

TRBLSHTR · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

I have had these kinds of arguments many times and with many employers/employees of different construction outfits.There are no winners,and the best I can come up with for my own use is like the military uses for the "sexually challenged".I.E. "don't ask ,don't tell"if you are going to carry and you are a CHL/CWP holder then just keep your mouth shut and don't brandish. Sad

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

dust54, I never thought about a collapsible night stick.

Good idea, thanks !!!

dust54 · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

There are other states with similar laws, this one just hit the street:
Employee Rights Protection Act Goes into Effect Today! Senate Bill 51, NRA-backed legislation that passed during the recent session of the Louisiana Legislature and was signed into law by Governor Bobby Jindal (R), will take effect today, Friday, August 15, 2008. Now known as Act No. 684, the law reaffirms the rights of law-abiding Louisianans to transport and store lawfully possessed firearms in locked, privately-owned motor vehicles, including while traversing or parking in any parking lot, parking garage or other parking area. Property owners, tenants, public or private employers, and businesses may not prohibit the transportation or storage of firearms in motor vehicles in their parking lots or garages if those areas are accessible to the general public. These entities may only regulate the transportation and storage of firearms in secure parking areas if they meet certain conditions.

Vince · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Dust54 wrote:

Property owners, tenants, public or private employers, and businesses may not prohibit the transportation or storage of firearms in motor vehicles in their parking lots or garages if those areas are accessible to the general public.

The way I read this....putting a lock on a gate, putting controlled access with either a Security Guard or pass activated gate will negate the above, allowing the property owner to "call the tune". Although...

Dust54 wrote:

These entities may only regulate the transportation and storage of firearms in secure parking areas if they meet certain conditions.

Be interesting to know what the conditions are they need to meet.

Cheers, Vince

chambered221 · Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: CCW and the employer

Good news for CCW holders in the state of Louisiana.

Although this is a good thing, I still say it’s not good enough !!! Bang Head