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Still trying to sort a load
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:50 pm    Post subject: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

I still haven’t sorted a load for my SMLE #5 MK1 Jungle Carbine. I have a mix of projectile weights from 150gr to 180gr, plus a few different cast options up to 210gr.

I’m beginning to think that I am being too pedantic regarding the capabilities of the SMLE range of rifles and grouping sizes.

The best (and only) factory offerings I have tried is those from PPU. The PPU 174gr FMJ shoot very well from my rifle, with groups around 2MOA. I have tried the 150gr PPU factory loads and they shot around 3MOA at 100m…leaving me a little disillusioned. My mate, who’s a SMLE guru said I should be very happy with that because my rifle is shooting well within the factory specifications.

Maj EGB Reynolds states the accuracy standard for the No. 4 Mk I was the same as the No. 1 rifle at 100 feet (five rounds had to be contained in a rectangle 1 inch wide by 1.5 inches high). That translates to 4.5 inches at 100 yards (4.5 MOA). 10% of all No. 4 rifles were tested at 200 yards where 6 out of 7 shots had to be with a 6 x 6 inch rectangle (approx 3 MOA, larger if any shots were near the corners of the rectangle).

The 'official' accuracy requirements are: ( www.enfield-rifles.com...t-accuracy )

SMLE TESTING
For the SMLE All rifles were tested for accuracy by the Small Arms Inspection Department at 100ft, and 10% were also tested at 600 yds. All rifles were fired from a special mechanical rest, known as an Enfield Rest, and a special Telescope layer was used for laying an aim. The Enfield Rest was designed to simulate the conditions under which a rifle would be held when fired from the shoulder, and was provided with hand wheel adjustments for laying an aim.

Trial shots were first fired and, if necessary the foresight was adjusted laterally, or replaced by one of a different height, until the shots on the target were within the required limits. Five rounds were then fired, and four of the five shots had to be contained in a rectangle 1 inch broad by 1½ in high. Rifles which failed this test were rejected. At 600 yds 10 shots were fired, nine of which had to fall within a 2 foot circle.

No 4 RIFLE TESTING
For the No 4 Rifle, the accuracy test was the same at 100ft ten per cent of all rifles were then fired at 200 yds when six of seven shots had to fall in a rectangle 6in x 6in , the point of mean impact having to be within 3 inches of the point of aim in any direction. Ten per cent of rifles fired at 200 yds were again fired at 600 yds when 6 out of seven shots had to be in a rectangle 18 inches x 18 inches the permissible deviation of point of mean impact being 9 inches up or down, or left or right. Two per cent of rifles were fired from the shoulder, ten rounds being fed into the magazine by charger and fired rapid to test “feeding up” and ejection. After these tests the barrel was inspected to ensure that there was no expansion in the bore or chamber and that it shaded correctly from end to end. (Was not bent)

No 5 TESTING (Jungle Carbine)
The firing test to which the No 5 rifle was subjected was the same as that for the No 4 at 100ft. It was not tested at 200 yds but 10 per cent were tested at 600 yards when the acceptance was ten out of ten shots contained in a rectangle 36 inches x 36 inches. Two per cent of the No 5 rifles were also submitted to the same functioning test as the No4 rifle.

Throughout World War 2 much of the accuracy testing was done by women shooters who quickly became proficient at the job. To speed up the procedure, the telescope layer was dispensed with, and aim was taken in the normal way through the back sight. The .1 inch aperture in the back sight was too large for easily laying a correct aim at 100ft, and a small spring steel adaptor was used.

Taking all of the above into account, and considering the accuracy levels I’m achieving, I’m beginning to think that my best option is factory ammunition. I’ll probably reserve handloads for plinking. I have yet to try the PPU 180gr factory loading as I’m waiting for a shipment to arrive in Australia, and when they do, ill test them in my rifle, I’ll then settle on a factory loading for hunting…although the 174gr FMJ is not an option.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

you arent telling us how good/bad or ugly your reloads are..... and yes 4" at hundy with opens is normal for a SMLE.... better than that is the exception rather than the norm.
if the 174grn fmj is good in rifle...a 180 cup n core should be similar....
your options are endless...

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Vince, I once read that one could not win a match with a SMLE at a distance shorter than 300 yards... it seems that round needs 300 yards to stabilize. At shorter distances you have the normal spinning of the bullet, but also a spiral circleyng which decreases during flight (to disappear and remain stable after +/-300 yards).

Another thing to pay attention to is headspace. Because the lugs of the bolt are placed at greater distance to the barrel than f.e. the german K98, the SMLE is more susceptible to headspace. You can exchange the part of the bolt that holds the case OR you can bring the shoulder of the case more forwards. To change the shoulder one has to force the round to the bolt. You can do so by adding a small rubber O-ring on the neck of the round before chambering it, so that the case is pushed backwards. You only have to do this once when you only necksize the case afterwards. (and keep the cases for that rifle only!)
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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
you arent telling us how good/bad or ugly your reloads are..... and yes 4" at hundy with opens is normal for a SMLE.... better than that is the exception rather than the norm.
if the 174grn fmj is good in rifle...a 180 cup n core should be similar....
your options are endless...

My loads are pretty good mate. I neck size my cases using the LEE collet die, every third loading I anneal the case neck and shoulder, I clean the cases after every second or third loading, I religiously check for case head separation after each firing, I throw the powder charge around half a grain light then trickle the powder by hand up to the desired charge weight, I only use Remington LR Primers (I don’t mix primer brands or types), and finally, I crimp every round using the LEE FCD.

Part of the problem is sourcing suitable powders for the SMLE. I have a stock of AR2206H, AR8208, and AR2208. There are other brands of powder eminently suitable for the SMLE, but trying to find them is difficult, and when you do, they cost an arm and a leg plus your first born.

I agree with your comment that the 180gr should shoot as well as the 174gr FMJ, but this is not the case. I’ve heard that some SMLE don’t like SP bullets…strange I know…but I’m thinking that the problem is the powder type and charge weight. More investigation is needed methinks. I’m hoping that the PPU Factory round in 180gr emulates the accuracy of the 174gr FMJ from PPU…I’ll be very surprised if I doesn’t. Like all factory loadings, I don’t know what powder they use, if they mix powders to achieve a certain pressure and velocity, or the actual charge weight. The last is easy to find out, but without knowing the type of powder it really means very little.

I’ll keep working at it, and if nothing else, I will get some quality recoil therapy.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Aloysius wrote:
Vince, I once read that one could not win a match with a SMLE at a distance shorter than 300 yards... it seems that round needs 300 yards to stabilize. At shorter distances you have the normal spinning of the bullet, but also a spiral circleyng which decreases during flight (to disappear and remain stable after +/-300 yards).

Another thing to pay attention to is headspace. Because the lugs of the bolt are placed at greater distance to the barrel than f.e. the german K98, the SMLE is more susceptible to headspace. You can exchange the part of the bolt that holds the case OR you can bring the shoulder of the case more forwards. To change the shoulder one has to force the round to the bolt. You can do so by adding a small rubber O-ring on the neck of the round before chambering it, so that the case is pushed backwards. You only have to do this once when you only necksize the case afterwards. (and keep the cases for that rifle only!)

I know that some bullets need extra distance to “go to sleep”, but I’ve never heard that of the SMLE. Might very well be worth looking into mate. Thanks.

Headspace in my rifle is good. It’s a factory original from England, and hasn’t been rebuilt yet. I’ll keep an eye on the headspace, and if needs be, I’ll buy the necessary bolt head to correct the headspace problem.

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Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

the whole goto sleep thing is bunkum

if its shooting 3 inches at 100 yards it cant shoot 3 inches at 200 or 400 it simply cannot do so. the rubber Oring thing..I thought it was put in front of the rim for first fireing and you used the little bit of shoulder formed from then on to sort of headspace..funny we having same discussion re 22 hornet on other forum about same thing...and the fellas just cant get it to work...maybe not enough pressure or the shoulder isnt harsh enough..why the K version is popular I believe.
have you seen 2205 around??? or lil gun or win 296??? mate cannot for life of him find any over there.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Elvis, I agree on your remark about the O-ring, in front of the rim looks far better and easier to do. And IMHO having a set of bolt heads at hand is still be best solution to the problem. When I remember it correct there are 4 different numbers of bolt heads.

And I don't shoot at more than 300 yards with iron sights anymore and I don't know how much the bullet is going out of its line due to that spiral flight, but when this disappears after 300 yards, the group might technically be able to shrink..
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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

“Elvis” wrote:
…have you seen 2205 around??? or lil gun or win 296??? mate cannot for life of him find any over there.

I haven’t seen any AR2205 in the shops for a while mate, and I don’t use 296 or Lil Gun (I think that’s renamed Trailboss, but don’t quote me on that), so I don’t sort of take any notice if they are around.

Where does your mate live? If he’s in Brisbane, I’ll keep an eye out for those powders for him.

Like Aloys…300m is as far as I want to shoot (unless there’s good reason to stretch that further Wink Wink )

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

lilgun and trailboss definately not the same
lilgun is SIMILAR to 296/H110 in that its a .410 shotgun/44magnum/22hornet powder
trailboss is doughnut shaped powder with similar burn SPEED but made with huge size so lowers bulk density to almost be similar to black powder...used lots for cowboy action shooting,it gives a full or near full case with low velocity. lots of FUN to use and pretty difficult to overload seriously using it....in saying that it runs at highish pressure.

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RePete
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Vince, I've had Enfields and most of them were decent groups, the 4 being the most accurate. The 5 on the other hand wouldn't shoot better than a 4" group, no matter what I did.

I haven't had Enfieds for almost 30 years now. Too much of a rabbit hole.

Good luck.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

RePete wrote:
Vince, I've had Enfields and most of them were decent groups, the 4 being the most accurate. The 5 on the other hand wouldn't shoot better than a 4" group, no matter what I did.

I haven't had Enfieds for almost 30 years now. Too much of a rabbit hole.

Good luck.

I’ve got my #5 now down to less than the factory expected. I think I’m just being pedantic with my expectations. Also, I’ve found that the PPU factory ammo shoots very well in my #5. Maybe I just need to accept that it was never intended to be a tack driver, but was built to shoot Minute of Man, and I’m certainly achieving that now.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

I decided to try some more factory loadings with my #5 Jungle Carbine. I visited my "go to" gunshop and purchased three different loadings of PPU factory .303 ammo.

The price was a bit ordinary at AUD$199.50 for 100 rounds...AUD$39.90 a 20 round pack...near enough $2 a shot, Shocked wtf wtf but given they have to come in from Czechoslovakia, then firstly go through the importer, who adds his profit margin, then the gunshop who adds his margin, its to be expected.

I purchased two packs - 40 rounds - of 150gr SP, a pack - 20 rounds- of 174gr FMJ, and two packs of 180gr SP - 40 rounds...100 rounds in total. The 174gr offering is as close to the original Mk7 Ball ammo as you will find, and my rifle really likes them. Unfortunately, being a FMJ, they are not much use for hunting. I know that the 150gr SP will group around 3 MOA at 100m, but I'm keen to see how the 180gr SP will shoot given its much closer to the 174gr in weight.

I plan on getting out to the range next Friday (16 Feb 2024), but I want to source a slip-on buttstock recoil reducer beforehand...I'm sick of the 73 year old rubber "recoil pad" that's as hard as a rock, belting me from one end of the range to the other and bruising my shoulder. To that end, I've decided on either a Limbsaver slip-on or a Pachmayr Decelerator slip-on. I'm not sure which is the better of the two, although I'm sure they are both suitable for my needs...it just comes down to availability. Any advice or guidance will be much appreciated.

I'm really looking forward to hitting the range, if for no other reason than to get a little recoil therapy...but I really want to see how the 180gr SP from PPU shoot in my rifle. Range Report to follow.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

I've put some LimbSaver pads on some hard kicking guns (.50 ML, .45-70, .35 Whelen) and they made a big difference. Of course Pachmayer is obviously good too.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
I've put some LimbSaver pads on some hard kicking guns (.50 ML, .45-70, .35 Whelen) and they made a big difference. Of course Pachmayer is obviously good too.

Thanks Punkin…as I say, it will probably come down to availability.

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Illegitimi non carborundum
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Still trying to sort a load Reply with quote

I've used the PAST shoulder recoil pad for alot of bench shooting when I didnt want to modify my rifle. They work good.

-DallanC
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