awesome info...thanks to all. it looks like I will use scales and the dipper is more RELEVANT to front stuffers...I also use LEE spoons onto the scales so it will be interesting to see what the consistancy is like...... I had light bulb moment the other day......if I cant drive the 400ish grain projectiles quick enough to be usefull with case capacity of powder.....will same volume/weight of powder drive a LIGHTER projectile faster???? eg something 250-300 grns if I can find some.

Elvis ,,,I think this is clear enough that you can see it. Shooting pictures isn't my better skills.
You're only going to gain a couple feet per-second ,on the 300gr. over the 405gr. ,as the black powder velocity doesn't change that much on a grain or two .


What length barrel you using ?

raw she was 27" we lost a couple chambering so it should still have 24....

that page is great thanks Pete..... black powder is completely new to me and Im making it harder by making it myself...and its a new cartridge in a new firearm....lots to learn.

Here's another from the
Lyman Black-Powder Handbook

Black powder was originally loaded by weight, in drams, which is close to 1/16 ounce.
There was also a fluid dram that was a measurement of volume of about 1/8 ounce of water.
The dram can be traced back to Greece and its golden era where the drachm weighed exactly one dram.

Once you weigh the powder you are using then you set the volume loader for it.
Note: If you set your volume load using F then FF and FFF will weigh more because of the smaller grain size. Air takes up the space in the F powder and FFFF has no air at all because it is just about dust.

PaulS wrote:

Black powder was originally loaded by weight, in drams, which is close to 1/16 ounce. There was also a fluid dram that was a measurement of volume of about 1/8 ounce of water. The dram can be traced back to Greece and its golden era where the drachm weighed exactly one dram. Once you weigh the powder you are using then you set the volume loader for it. Note: If you set your volume load using F then FF and FFF will weigh more because of the smaller grain size. Air takes up the space in the F powder and FFFF has no air at all because it is just about dust.

Paul,, That's why I use a powder drop tube ,the powder will settle close to a 1/4-inch lower in the case with the drop . Then it doesn't take as much compression of the powder when you seat the bullet. ( Think I stated that were it's correct )

this makes perfect sence to me as I sow fertilizer for a living......
we measure a given volume (1 litre) of fertilizer and weigh it,the different fertilizers vary a lot...the two extremes are urea at 750 and lime at 1500.... same VOLUME twice the weight.....
when they made the decimal system they had head screwed on correctly,EVERYTHING is linked together eg 1 litre of water weighs 1kg and measures 10cmx10cmx10cm
1000 litres of water weighs 1metric ton and takes up a cubic metre of space

reading article Vince posted suggests origonal loads use weight and you then find the volume you need to get that weight and set your powder...thrower to get correct amount...... from what I read before making this stuff I was led to believe it would be about twice the volume of SWISS for same weight,it appears that might be the case if swiss takes up the amount of space in .45/70 case to weigh 70 grains..

and the courier dropped me a package today with TWO lovely little M8 4x leupold scopes in it!!!!! one for my other bush rifle and one for the wee .22lr
the "hefalump gun" wont have a scope on it at all.

Elvis "this makes perfect sence to me as I sow fertilizer for a living......"

I farmed for 50+ years . So I'm a jack of all trades. master of none

1 dram = 27.344 grains

if my memory servs me correctly the shotgun side of black powder is really easy...you use same VOLUME of powder as you do shot....as I have really old LEE whackamole shotgun loading kit with dippers for shot it will be piece of cake to load a few up....that should be worth a chuckle or three mid day on opening weekend.

shotgun: same volume BP as shot (or less shot) and as wad 3 or 4 pieces (unused!) toiletpaper.
Carefull when you shoot in dry environment as the toiletpaper can act as fire-starter

Just to give you an idea of the setting depth
Left to right 300-gr Hornady , 405-gr Win. , 405-gr cast Lyman mold , 500-gr cast flatten tip , 500-gr cast Lee mold


My old girl

found this rather insiteful
www.chuckhawks.com/bla...metric.htm

lovely looking rifle you have there Pete...details please

Elvis wrote:

found this rather insiteful www.chuckhawks.com/bla...metric.htm lovely looking rifle you have there Pete...details please

Thanks for that link ,,,,, A lot of good info there. read the article on powder compression and the weighting , always wondered if I was getting enough compression or not enough . As it would effect the group size. Black powder unlike smokeless powder you can't just adjust the powder by a few grains and change your group size.

Springfield model 1884 trapdoor 45/70 Gov.
After my brother ,Charley Smith an old neighbor and I had built a few muzzle loaders . I Build this old girl back in the 1960's from parts (Dixie Gun Works),
she's on her second stock and third barrel , the side plate and trigger guard I had to build myself because I couldn't find them to buy. The rear (Lyman ) sight I had to lengthen the rear tang to mount it low enough . Added Williams fire sight to the front sight , the base for that sight is from a Springfield '03 .

she has a fine pedigree Mate.....still the same rifle you origonally built just had a few replacements along the way ,the same as Barry Crumps axe...2 new heads and 3 new handles but its the same one he always used


having read numerous articles (seems like half the internet) I believe Ive overthunked this far too much....IF I have got the theory semi correct,a load of home grown black powder WONT be CAPABLE of overloading a cartridge rifle and shouldnt be able to underload it either...the article Vince put up by makers of fine replicas talked about reduced loads which look to be about 50% of std loads...at end of day all it has to do to be safe is to push projectile out end of barrel....hopefully quick enough to travel a useful distance with reasonable accuracy....Im even thinking they SHOULD be lower in pressure than a smokeless loading all things being semi equal......might just cut out a couple of tetrapack/milk carton spacer wads to help protect the non gas checked base of projectile and stuff a good case load of black stuff in and find out...looking at Petes loads they appear to seat similar distance to what Ive got.... saw my barrel the other day,she fits in neatly with one tiny high spot which Dan will fix this week and he going to put in small1/8th " /3mm cut-groove in rim so I can prise out cases as it wont have ejection capabilites...this will also have bonus side effect of allowing me to relocate insert to same place each time and heaven forbid if it shoots off to one side in crazy manner to rotate insert to hopefully print holes in more usefull locality