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FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use?Discussion that doesnt fit other Topics
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5037 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Another forum I visit is having a discussion on using/prefering FMJs for defensive carry use. Its been interesting to see what and why people prefer one or the other. Honestly I was surprised at the number of folks who prefer FMJs, and their reasoning. So I thought I'd bring the subject here and see what happens.
Personally I've been studying the physics of shooting for 40+ years. There were a couple of periods when I was armed on the job so I had a pretty selfish reason to make sure that I knew what might work and what might not. During this time bullet construction, as well as available cartridges and guns, have changed. I expect to keep studying, and learning about it, for a while longer. I recently read "Combat Shooting" by Ayoob, which has a section on choices for defensive ammo. By the way, he and the experts he cites recommend JHPs.
First I'll say that if someone thinks that physics doesn't matter they obviously have no understanding of how the real world works. Second, EVERY shooting, regarding terminal ballistics, is different because there are so many variables, most importantly the "target's" physical and mental states. There is no way to predict with 100% certainty what will happen in a given situation. That doesn’t mean that tests are invalid.
That said, all of the different tests done over the years do point to certain things that tend to give better terminal results. Based on all that I will always carry a good JHP for defensive use. I do make an exception, if I was worried about very large critters I'd carry a good, heavy, flat pointed bullet. If a particular gun wouldn't feed JHPs reliably I'd either fix it, sell it or just use it for plinking.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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TRBLSHTR Super Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1071 Location: Lower 48's-left coast(near portlandia)
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Pumpkinslinger wrote: |
Another forum I visit is having a discussion on using/prefering FMJs for defensive carry use. Its been interesting to see what and why people prefer one or the other. Honestly I was surprised at the number of folks who prefer FMJs, and their reasoning. So I thought I'd bring the subject here and see what happens.
Personally I've been studying the physics of shooting for 40+ years. There were a couple of periods when I was armed on the job so I had a pretty selfish reason to make sure that I knew what might work and what might not. During this time bullet construction, as well as available cartridges and guns, have changed. I expect to keep studying, and learning about it, for a while longer. I recently read "Combat Shooting" by Ayoob, which has a section on choices for defensive ammo. By the way, he and the experts he cites recommend JHPs.
First I'll say that if someone thinks that physics doesn't matter they obviously have no understanding of how the real world works. Second, EVERY shooting, regarding terminal ballistics, is different because there are so many variables, most importantly the "target's" physical and mental states. There is no way to predict with 100% certainty what will happen in a given situation. That doesn’t mean that tests are invalid.
That said, all of the different tests done over the years do point to certain things that tend to give better terminal results. Based on all that I will always carry a good JHP for defensive use. I do make an exception, if I was worried about very large critters I'd carry a good, heavy, flat pointed bullet. If a particular gun wouldn't feed JHPs reliably I'd either fix it, sell it or just use it for plinking. |
DITTO!
_________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann |
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dhc4ever Super Member
Joined: May 26, 2011 Posts: 2944 Location: Ipswich, Queensland Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Defensive use against humans?
IMO JHP all the way.
More expended energy into the target, large wound channel, more shock and damage, less likely to have a projectile exit the target.
Defensive use against cape buffalo, something beginning with .5 and a solid bullet construction.
_________________ Pete
Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics.............. |
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Ominivision1 Super Member
Joined: Sep 20, 2010 Posts: 2984 Location: Iowa
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Pumpkinslinger wrote: |
Based on all that I will always carry a good JHP for defensive use. |
+1
_________________ Regards
Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds. |
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gelandangan Super Member
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 6432 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Ozzians never need to defend themselves.
not with guns, knives, 4by2's or any other physical stuff..
We simply sick the greenies to the baddies..
Well id that didnt work, I guess JHP might..
_________________ A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.
Do - Not try!
gelandangan.weebly.com/ |
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Donut Slayer Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: Pensacola, Florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Very interesting subject PS. I've been involved with several shootings in my career, more than I care to have. I perfer JHP to FMJ, BUT I can tell you in a lot of instances, JHP's will act like FMJ. IE, no expansion what so ever. We, (my dept) tested a variety of bullets when we swotched to 40'a a few years back. We have changed rounds several times too. We started with Black Talons, then the name changed to Supreme Xpansive Talons, then we changed to Speer Gold Dots, Then to Remington Goldern sabre's. The Talons were the most lethal on people. Gold dots had the most penetration. I know for a fact ( dont ask) they will go thru: bedroom door, 2 layers of sheet rock, 5 heavy jackets of leather, and denum, thru another 2 layers of sheetrock, and then hit the wall on the otherside of the living room, with NO expansion. HP was filled with sheetrock making it a FMJ.
_________________ Browning X-Bolt in 30'06. The work for a pet load starts again. The more people I meet, the more I like my dog. |
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Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5037 Location: NC foothills
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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DS, the subject of JHPs not expanding came up in the other forum too. My feeling there is that a hollow point MIGHT not expand, therefore acting like an FMJ, but an FMJ WILL not expand. IMO that's still a plus for the JHP.
A buddy of mine was involved in a lot of testing of ammo for a Federal agency a few years ago so I'll have to ask him what kind of results they got. It was all .40 S&W but I can't remember for sure what worked best for them.
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
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Donut Slayer Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2007 Posts: 594 Location: Pensacola, Florida
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Suzanne Super Member
Joined: Jun 27, 2009 Posts: 3323 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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I particularly chose JHP for my 380 only because it seemed like the right thing to do. Not much of a pistol shooter myself but it just seems logical to me to choose an expanding boolit at close quarters. You don't want to just poke holes in someone, you want to dis-able them now. It's like the difference between using a long bladed knife or a hammer blow to the chest. You really have to mess up the insides bad to stop someone very fast. Poking holes is only going to make them bleed to death (slowly) but a nice wound channel or shock wave from a bullet that has expanded is going to at least make them stagger and know they were hit by something. The shock and distruction will take it's toll quicker than poking a hole will.
Queezzzyyy now
Suz
_________________ May the moon keep you centered,
May the sun keep you dancing,
And the stars shed light on your dreams. |
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TRBLSHTR Super Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 1071 Location: Lower 48's-left coast(near portlandia)
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PaulS Super Member
Joined: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 4330 Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Most of the "defensive" ammo and components include a lightweight hp bullet. The "norm" for my 357 is a 125 grain JHP but since I use the same round for everything (accuracy is most important) I opted for the 140 JHP bullet in my loads. They may not be as fast as some of the commercial ammo but I can keep them grouped and shoot them instinctively very accurately too.
A shot to the head or neck with any caliber will stop an attacker quick. Even the puny 22RF will penetrate the skull at close range. The neck is not my favorite place to aim because the odds of actually hitting the spinal cord or even close enough to it to cause damage are arguably pretty low. My defensive shooting has always been to the middle of mass - until recently.
_________________ Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads |
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Elvis Super Member
Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Posts: 9337 Location: south island New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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I dont know alot about handgun rounds but from what I have read and from my own experience with rifle rounds on game over the years has led me to loose faith in a strict hollow point in favour of a nice juicy big exposed lead tip. the theory goes that a hollow may only open if the cavity is filled upon impact. I have 2 .223 52grn hollow points recovered from game that didnt open AT ALL and they have a great gaping hollow point and yet I havent ever recovered a spitzer or round nose that hadnt opened up. the norinco fmj .223 rounds tumble on impact and leave a huge wound cavity usually but that is different to a handgun round I believe. maybe the old guys with thier soft lead slugs had a good thing going??
_________________ You shot it You pluck it !
Them who eats the most duck eats the most feathers! |
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Aloysius Super Member
Joined: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 2456 Location: B., Belgium
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Elvis, I wouldn't compare a .224 HP matchbullet with a HP of a handgunbullet...
but I'm surprised nobody is mentioning the lead bullet. In my opinion at handgunspeeds, it's hard to beat a lead bullet when it comes to stopping energy. And here I realy don't need a lead HP, RN or FN will also perform as required.
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gelandangan Super Member
Joined: May 07, 2006 Posts: 6432 Location: Sydney Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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The Hydroshock or whatchamacallit thingy, have a center pole within the HP, I guess the idea is to use the center pole to direct the material that may plug the hollow point to the sides of the HP, and thus giving it higher chance of expanding even if the HP is plugged.
_________________ A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.
Do - Not try!
gelandangan.weebly.com/ |
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SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1006 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:49 am Post subject: Re: FMJs vs. JHPs for defensive handgun use? |
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Pumpkinslinger wrote: |
My feeling there is that a hollow point MIGHT not expand, therefore acting like an FMJ, but an FMJ WILL not expand. IMO that's still a plus for the JHP. |
My opinion too. An FMJ is more likely to poke through a target to endanger persons or property. A hollow point that works properly helps minimize this as well as cause more damage at the target. Not entirely trusting any bullet's ability to expand is why I carry .45s with hollow point bullets. If they work, fine if not I have mass and diameter on my side in the event of bullet failure. Nothing wrong with a properly designed SWC either. It will at least cut a full-caliber hole and most penetrate straight.
_________________ If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!
The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.
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