that's the kind of gun I would chose to hunt dangerous game: the first shot a slug and the follow-up, if necessairy, a shotshell filled with heavy balls centered by a full choke (or a choke that will give the best pattern).

I've not seen them with a rifled barrel yet, but I've allready seen old Belgian doubles with 1 smooth bore and the other a full choke and I've been told that they were made for this kind of hunting.

BTW, every time you add something to your thread here you make me get more and more desire to start with "smoothbores-without-limits" myself... what doesn't kill you can only make you smarter

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.



Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.




I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

So, these are drawn cases and not turned?

Yes they are super strong drawn cases.Same
brass cup and draws as military Cheytac, Just a
belted header used instead of a Gibbs/Cheytac
header in mfg process.ED

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.



Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..



Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.



Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.



Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.



Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.



Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

sure 585? I've always believed that the cal 24 shotshell could be used in a .577 Snider.

I've use what are called 577 Snyder slugs in my
585 case and they measure .585"
Nominal bore size for 24ga from COTW book is .580" .
Now a 24ga plastic case won't go in my chamber but
the bore is close. 24ga wads and cards fit fine..Ed

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.



Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.



Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.



Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.



Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.



Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
instead of 65,000...Ed

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.



The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.




All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..



The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.



Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.




After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed