HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 1
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 111
BOT: 1
Total: 112
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Home
04: Forums
05: Photo Albums
06: Home
07: Home
08: Home
09: Photo Albums
10: Forums
11: Home
12: Forums
13: Home
14: Home
15: Home
16: Your Account
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Forums
22: Home
23: Home
24: Photo Albums
25: Forums
26: Home
27: Forums
28: Photo Albums
29: Home
30: Home
31: Home
32: Photo Albums
33: Forums
34: Photo Albums
35: Forums
36: Photo Albums
37: Forums
38: Home
39: Photo Albums
40: Forums
41: Photo Albums
42: Your Account
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Your Account
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Home
53: Your Account
54: Your Account
55: Home
56: Forums
57: Home
58: Home
59: Home
60: Forums
61: Home
62: Forums
63: Home
64: News
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Forums
68: Forums
69: Forums
70: Forums
71: Home
72: Forums
73: Home
74: Home
75: Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Forums
79: Home
80: Home
81: Your Account
82: Home
83: Home
84: Home
85: Photo Albums
86: Photo Albums
87: Forums
88: Your Account
89: Photo Albums
90: Forums
91: Your Account
92: Forums
93: Forums
94: Your Account
95: Forums
96: Your Account
97: Photo Albums
98: Forums
99: Your Account
100: Forums
101: Photo Albums
102: Photo Albums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Home
106: Home
107: Forums
108: Forums
109: Home
110: Photo Albums
111: Forums
  BOT:
01: Your Account

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Overworking the Brass?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

Ok, still trying to learn here. My first 3 years of reloading, I used only a Lee Classic Loader which only neck sizes and does it from the outside. Its provided more than acceptable results and the process is pretty simple. Now I'm transitioning to a press (RCBS Rock Chucker) and "real" dies for my .223 and .270 Win. The process and details are slightly different. With the "real" dies, the neck sizing is done by first constricting the neck more than is needed and then expanding it back out with a neck-sizing button on the decapping rod. Sizing the neck from the inside of the case should provide more consistent neck tension on the bullet. The Hornady dies compress the neck to about 0.293" for the .270 Win cases (outside diameter) where the Redding dies compress the neck to 0.300". They both expand the neck back out to about 0.302". Is the Hornady die over-working the brass? Will may brass life be shortened by fatigue or work-hardening? It sure makes the return stroke on the ram require a lot of pressure.

Your comments and feedback is appreciated.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

I also noticed two other things.

1. The brass doesn't grow as much (needs less or no trimming to be at the proper case length) with the Redding dies.

2. I don't have to lube the inside of the case necks with the Redding Dies.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
DallanC
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3571
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

Anytime you work the brass it will harden over time. You should look into annealing to soften the brass. Its easy and there are lots of youtube video's demonstrating it.


-DallanC
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
TRBLSHTR
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1071
Location: Lower 48's-left coast(near portlandia)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

Very Happy Another thing that you might contemplate is checking the neck thickness on your fired brass.Rounds like th 270,and 25-06 tend to make the brass flow forward when fired and cause the case necks to thicken.You can get rid of this problem by inside neck "reaming,or outside neck turning.This thickened neck problem could also lead to the symptoms you are finding when you pull the expander back thru the neck.FWIW

_________________
"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann
Back to top
View user's profile
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

It may be a good idea to lube the inside of the neck anyway, this will reduce scratching that may start a crack in the neck.

I use a cup of tiny steel balls sprinkled with graphite for this purpose.
Simply poke the brass into the cup and the inside and outside of the neck would be coated with a very fine layer of graphite.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
moose2
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 707
Location: North Idaho

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

I use graphite also when I neck size. Have never tried annealing, but it sure couldn't hurt to try it out. Very Happy

_________________
tr
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

TRBLSHTR wrote:
Another thing that you might contemplate is checking the neck thickness on your fired brass.

I measured the brass and the many times fired cases have the same thickness as the new brass within +-0.001.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

DallanC wrote:
You should look into annealing to soften the brass. Its easy and there are lots of youtube video's demonstrating it.

After watching some youtube clips, this is something I could do. At least the simple methods with a torch, bucket of water, drill, and a 12mm long-reach socket.

However, and this applies to all aspects of case preparation, there has to be a point where one decides all the extra equipment you have to buy and the time you spend isn't worth it and you just buy new cases. I'm trying to decide where this point is. Case Trimmers - $100, brass tumblers $150, prep tools, $25, case lube $30. I know, some one is going to say - perfect brass - priceless! Guess you have to love the process.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

gelandangan wrote:
It may be a good idea to lube the inside of the neck anyway ... I use ... graphite for this purpose.

gelandangan, how do you clean the graphite off so it doesn't get on the bullet and affect neck tension?

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
moose2
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 707
Location: North Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

To clean my case necks, I just use a case neck brush for that caliber.

_________________
tr
Back to top
View user's profile
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

+ set of case neck brushes - $15

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
moose2
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Posts: 707
Location: North Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
+ set of case neck brushes - $15

Still lights years cheaper than the electrician I had to hire yesterday.
I Q-tip would work also. Cool

_________________
tr
Back to top
View user's profile
Ominivision1
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 2984
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

Graphite is present in all smokeless and BP powder, it is a deterrent against moisture attacking the powder. The minuscule amount that drops on the powder or stays on the neck is irrelevant.

I made an anneal tool years ago when working with wildcat cartridges (think 250/3000 ackley improved) for my gun before I gave it to my son. It was a 3/8th" diameter soft copper mated with a propane torch (not the self igniting ones) and with a few fittings and the copper tubing bent in a close circle that would cover all my cases I reloaded for. Hence at that time the total cost was under $10.00.

The following picture gives you an idea, my son has the annealing tool now so I could not take a picture of it. Notice the cases are in a pan of aluminum and filled with water up to the bottom 1/4" at the base of the case. When case has been heated to 650-670F. Stop and tip the case over and move to the next one.



propane_annealing.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  60.7 KB
 Viewed:  8999 Time(s)

propane_annealing.jpg


_________________
Regards

Limitations are but boundaries created inside our minds.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 6396
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
gelandangan wrote:
It may be a good idea to lube the inside of the neck anyway ... I use ... graphite for this purpose.

gelandangan, how do you clean the graphite off so it doesn't get on the bullet and affect neck tension?

Mate, the graphite will have almost no effect on the neck tension.
the amount that stuck on the case is less than what you would get if you use a pencil and 'color' the neck.

Otoh, some do clean their brass after resizing (vibrator or ultrasonic or etc)

Slim, although annealing the case would help prolong its life, it could be bad if you overdoing this, you should only anneal them sparingly.
unless you are planning to re use your cases very often, it might be better (and cheaper) just to chuck them brass out as they age.
A set of brass could be used to reload for over 10 times if you do not overwork it.
Annealing may increase the life cycle a bit further, however unless you have a good annealing rig, you may over done it and soften the shoulder.
Thus may end up damaging the case.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 8314
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Overworking the Brass? Reply with quote

gelandangan, I've been getting up to 20 loads on a case when I was neck sizing only with the Classic Lee Handloader dies. That is only an estimate as I actually stopped counting and just retired the brass when the case length had to be trimmed. The Lee Handloader dies only size the neck once from the outside vs twice when one uses a die with a neck-expander button. That is probably why I was getting so many reloads. I have plenty of new brass. Maybe i should retire the lot I have and start with fresh brass with these new full-length resizing dies.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.