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Black cases from burnt powder
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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clembob
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Just been developing a load in .243 with a 55gn Sierra Blitz king 1502 new batch of Winchester brass
Loaded 15 with Varget (41,42,43,44,45grains) 2.650 COAL from Lee 2nd edition Data and 9 with Vit 140 ( 40,41,42 grains) 2.630 COAL from Sierra data.
Varget did not group well for any powder weight but cases all clean.
N140 grouped well best was 42 which had two bullets on bullet but cases came out black even the bolt face was black!
Rifle was a savage mod 16fcss fitted with a Ase Ultra S5 mod.
Also necks would not need resizing as bullet cannot be hand pressed into case (cases tight being pushed onto lee collet die mandrel).

Why would the cases and bolt face get powder residue on them I've only ever seen a small amount round the neck before and why only on V140?
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

I have never used N140 but to me it sounds like a to light load with that powder, as the case was not sent back against the bolt face to push the primer back in and the gases leaked around the bolt face. I just looked ip in my pdf book and cannot find a listing for the 55gr pill, however, the hornady sxsp 70gr takes 39.7 min to 44.1grs max for the 70gr pill with col 2.638". This again tells me the loads are too light in powder and leaking.

The guys/gals that are familiar with that powder will chime in shortly.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

One other thought came to me was that maybe the primers are not seating all the way, but since you are using the same brass (new and checked?) and checked primer pockets? If so than I would lean towards too light of a powder charge for your load.

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clembob
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Just looked at the case agaign and the case head is not black nor is the bolt face where the case comes in contact but the lugs and case extraction grove is very black along with soot streaks down the case and neck.
Primer pockets look fine they had had an rcbs pocket tool used along with the flash hole de-burred before loading.
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clembob
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Here is the Sierra Load Data with the Vit140 listed



sierra243win.zip
 Description:
Sierra Load data
 Filename:  sierra243win.zip
 Filesize:  81.16 KB
 Downloaded:  553 Time(s)
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fnuser
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Is it possible you enlarged the vent hole when you deburred them? Nevermind if the primers are not backing out. Or are they? I got lost reading down the thread I hadn't noticed that but Omni mentions it. But yeah soot around the case is usually an under-pressure indicator.

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HayCreek
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Gotta agree with fnuser. Light load. Case isn't expanding enough to seal the chamber and the bullet-tight neck is another indicator.
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

VihtaVouri Oy does list a load for a 58 grain bullet in the .243 on their website:

www.vihtavuori-lapua.c...a-2006.pdf

Kinda odd that the last info given is from 2006.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Pumpkin, maybe this is better Smile


www.lapua.com/upload/d...011eng.pdf

and in my opinion: when the neck is not black and the boltface is, then I wouldn't think about underload but I would check what's wrong with the primer/primerpocket.
Gasses cannot reach the bolt without touching the neck, unless they know a shortcut... meaning split case or primerpocket.


And for what it's worth: I don't shoot the .243 Win myself, but when I would, unless I had a very short barrel I would opt for a heavier bullet, a slower powder f.e. N160 and with N160 I always use magnum primers.

And FYI: I'm reloading for about 30 years and still got all my fingers Smile
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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Like Aloys...I load a heavier bullet for the .243...55gns is the lowest weight I would even remotely consider, and even then I don't think it is doing the calibre any favours. I load an 85gn bullet, with 37.5gns of Varget, and don't experience any sooting problems...and its a very accurate load to boot.

I tend agree with all of the above...its leaning towards a light load. I would consider that, for a 55gn bullet, a slightly faster powder would be a better option than Varget, say H4895 (40gn start - 44.5gn max) or Benchmark (39gn start - 41.5gn max).

Whilst we are all considering a light load, I would also be looking at other areas as well...are the cases the correct length (I've had new Winchester cases that were long), is the chamber in spec for instance, what is the headspace like?

Cheers, Vince

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

man thats a light projectile alright. why would you go so light?? Ive seen 90grners for the .270 but couldnt think why you would use them a 110 is light enough to go super quick and explosive. surely something 70-85 grns would do it all and more in .243 if you can get hold of Taipan projectiles you wont worry about recochets or lack of expansion EVER again they blow up very nice and there are even better projectiles than that on the market.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Not a thing wrong with a 55gr bullet ........... they light but work just fine !!!

I'm in agreement with not enough pressure.
What primer did you use ??? What did the load data use ???

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clembob
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Hi All

The primer is a standard cci large no splitting or sooting round primer.
The load data came from Sierras own site for the butllet (zip file attacded to this thread)
55 grain for fox 100 yards range
Thanks so far
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Sierra data used a Federal 210M, (match) that primer is hotter than the CCI's !!!

I suggest you either bump the load or switch to the Federal and try again.

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clembob
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Black cases from burnt powder Reply with quote

Well I went back to the range with the fired cases reloaded as below.
I cleaned the outside of the case and then just neck sized reloaded the same load of V140 I also had BLC-2 loads 43,44,45,46,47 both loads showed no sootting on the case, bolt lugs or on the case grove just a very small amount on the neck and shoulder just like my .223 and .308..
The interesting thing is that the necks are still tight from both loads.
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