What are your thoughts?

1895ss · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: What are your thoughts?

Winchester RIP
Guns Magazine, Dec, 2006 by Zeke Corder

John Taffin laments the passing of Winchester as the presage of the death of civilization. I think it happened long before the doors were closed at New Haven. Winchester of 2004 was not Winchester of 1894. It was a different company and they built a different gun. The quality of construction, the fit and finish and the reliability of latter-day 1894s and Model 70s did not generate a lot of interest. The fact the guns didn't sell well enough to keep the factory going had much to do with the ever decreasing quality of their construction.

The same is happening to Smith & Wesson. If they survive another 10 years it will be a miracle. You will find when any manufacturer quits trying to stay in the market and begins to believe they deserve to stay in business simply because they have been in business a long time, they often fail. That is the nature of capitalism and certainly does not relate to a death of civilization. Though, I too, lament the loss of Winchester, my lament actually began many years ago when they quit building guns as good as other manufacturers. The loss of Mark Shapel and Shapel's Gun Shop is much more difficult for me to accept than the final act of closing the New Haven plant in the long, painful decline of Winchester.

Zeke Corder

www.findarticles.com/p..._n16808603

Probably true for many more gun manufacturers in my opinion. Crying or Very sad

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5944

Its ok 1895, there will be companys producing fine firearms for many years to come. Smile

Remington is one as is Savage. Very Happy

Dimitri

Bushmaster · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

My thoughts?...Sad. But that is capitalism at it's finest. If you can't find a way to manufacture a product in quality at an afordable price you are out. In Winchesters case the Ol' man died and his wife was a nut case and an extreme liberal. Her though was that every one shot with a Winchester was haunting her hence her wierd house. She sold the company (at a great profit I might add) to those that couldn't keep up.

Winchester and Colt are and were American Icons...

How would you feel if Marlin went under, 1895ss...??

1895ss · Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

Bushmaster wrote:

How would you feel if Marlin went under, 1895ss...??

I would feel the same as I do now! Meaning I hate to see any American Firearms Co. go under whether I have any of their product or not. I do have a WW shotgun remember...... ? I think the article by Zeke Corder I posted has some truth to it like when he states that "when any manufacturer quits trying to stay in the market and begins to believe they deserve to stay in business simply because they have been in business a long time, they often fail." The short mags were likely a nail in WW's coffin as well. It must have cost a fortune to retool their plants. I'm glad to see things like Marlin and Hornady are doing, Eg coming up with a few new calibers, reinventing some of the old calibers, new ammo for some old calibers etc. I think that helps them stay afloat. Hopefully some American Co.'s stay in business, I'd hate to see all our firearms produced across the pond!

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5944

Short mags were made by Olin the owners of the Winchester Trade mark and manufatures of Winchester Ammo. Smile

All Winchest guns had to do was build new bolts to fit the WSM and WSSM and new reamers. And Winchester guns (USRAC - US Reapeating Arms Co.) was owned by FN who also owns Browning (the guys who bought the rights to the winchester name now that USRAC's contract with Olin had expired) Smile

Winchester/USRAC going "bankrupt" in my opinion was just a game that FN played to get rid of a division of its company since USRAC was of no use anymore because the company that they bought who owned the rights to produce Winchester branded guns contract with Olin expired. Shocked

Dimitri

Shipster · Member Joined: Dec 15, 2006 Posts: 26 Location: Oregon

Well, it is sad to see firearms mfg. go out of business, but I hope that something good becomes of this and maybe like a pheniox Winchester will rise from the ashes better and stronger. It's funny how companies go through changes not only in ownership but in quality of product. I worked in sporting goods for almost 20 years and all of the firearms mfg's seam to go through phases of quality. I remember when Savage 110 rifles were the absolute worst American made rifles and Remington rifles were the best and between Remington, Ruger, and Winchester those three seemed to change positions every couple of years (I'm speaking bolt action rifles) and in past couple of years Savage has moved up and Remington has fallen way down. The last couple of years Winchester was producing some of the best bolt rifles that USRA ever produced (IMHO) and Remington has been producing some of their worst, sloppy chambers poor fit and that thing they call the 710. Well any way this is all my opinion and like all opinions somebody will find fault in it.

Dimitri · Super Member Joined: Nov 25, 2005 Posts: 5944

You know Winchester went through its 3rd bankrupcy. This was the 3rd as far as I know. So now its started agian as a "4th" company. Smile

What we really need and not just in the firearms industry is people to take pride in what they make and make good products without a high markup so its easyer for people to afford and to care about the customer and not the shareholders. Very Happy

Now I dont think you'll find many of thouse company's around but you never know. Very Happy

Dimitri

rrogacki · Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

It is always sad to see any company go out of business. The worst part is that the employees who really have no say in the bad decisions that drive a company into the ground get hurt bad. While the executive management who are truely at fault walk away free, clear and stinking rich.

sniper · Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

I think what was partially at fault was current business attitudes.

There seemed to be not a lot of knowledge of the products, or pride in what they once were, nor commitment to making them better and more economical at the management level.

As in all other areas of business, there doesn't seem to be much interest in assisting the customer obrtain the most enjoyment from his firearm.

RCBS and Dillon are definite exceptions, but they don't make guns.

It is sad to see an old business die, but foreign manufacturers do tend to make better products. Maybe there is a lesson there, somewhere. Now , all we need to do is see if the new CEO of Ruger will guide the company in similar directions.

Handloader · Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

Opinion: part of the issue with the M70 was the promotion of the WSM and WSSM cartridges. This required much development and promotion (read dollars) and the profit margins were fairly thin. Ric Jamison may have pushed them over the edge as he had developed and patented the same cartridges ahead of Winchester and there was some out of court settlement in Jamison's favor.

Remington is in financial trouble, too. Ruger is healthy and so is Marlin and Savage.

The Models 70 and 94 will be manufactured again and available in the future. Where they will be sourced is an issue with Japan being the most likely -- afterall Miroku has had an extended relationship in producing some very fine Winchesters. Belgium may be another possibility as FN recently produced some superb 101s that rival anything Winchester (Miroku) offered in the past. But the Winchester name is not going to go away and, I am confident, Olin will do everything possible to assure the name continues. Whether it will be with FN or a new company remains to be seen.

Corder's remarks regarding Smith & Wesson are unfounded. Under new ownership S&W has surged in the market and they are offering handguns that far exceed the tolerances, accuracy and durability of the old beloved models of the past. S&W is at the forefront of modern technology and for pure shootability are unrivaled by any of their previous offerings. They are challenging Springfield effectively in the 1911 market, too. Their new AR15 series are superb rifles. What's Corder's beef?

squirrelbait · Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts?

For what it is worth S&W just bought Thomson Center Arms.
Not sure what that means yet but it could be more capital into TC development?