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Hating the .40 S&W?
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lesterg3
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

IMHO if you start at a .38 Special, and include all the available calibers up to .45 (or larger) each has the capacity to kill, heck even a .22/ pellet/ BB has the capacity to kill under that right conditions. And, is that not what we are talking about here, self defense?

If you are just punching holes in paper what does the caliber matter, unless your ego demands that you can brag to your drinking buddies that you are shooting a 500 caliber super-duper maximum magnum. I don’t have any drinking buddies and I gave up bragging about size somewhere in my 30’s.

So, regardless of caliber the real question here is can you defend yourself? And, under what circumstances are you effective at defending yourself, others around you, or your home or homestead.

I know, I know, in some cases here I am preaching to the choir, but I suspect that for a lot of folks here you have never tried to kill a human, let alone kill a human under extremely stressful conditions or during return fire conditions. Killing a person is not the same as harvesting a deer, rabbit, raccoon, turkey, or coyote. Take my word for it, it is just different and is something I pray that I will never do again. For most people I’ve worked with (I am no pro, but I have tried to help some folks train for a worst case scenarios) adding an extremely stressful condition, and/or a return fire condition their composure, aim, and accuracy go down dramatically.

Some of us have training, and in some cases extremely rigorous training thanks to Uncle Sam (not sure who Uncle Sam is in Australia or NZ), but most folks don’t have any real training. So just because you’re your a tough guy/gal and good at killing paper don’t think you’ll be OK when some idiot pokes a gun in your face, or a hoard of (just joking) zombies are approaching your homestead.

Go get the training, it’s out there and as far as I am concerned worth every penny.

_________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "--Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I dusted this post off when I read the following in regards to the FBI switching from the .40 back to the 9mm.
loadoutroom.com/12077/...s-science/

Personally I have both 9mm and .40 handguns, probably carry a Kimber Pro CDP II .45 more than the other two, but I wouldn't feel under gunned with my SIG P226 in .40.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I carry a .45 ACP, 9mm X 19 (both compact) or a S&W mod 19, but mostly the Kimber .45 ACP.

I am tempted to get a .40 S&W in a Firestar. I do like the firestar.

Yes I have shot at a human (missed Damnit, but that's another story).

I have had military training in the Navy. I hold Small arms expert with bronze star. Yup, Yer right. The targets didn't shoot back.

Self defense has a lot to due with mind set. Part of the training I have worked with is mind set in that I run "kill" and home defense drill senarios through my mind. Part of is working a real hate for particular people.

Situation awareness is of vital importance also. BUT...Lester is correct about actually carrying out shooting a human. Ya don't know if you can until it happens.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I find the current 9mm vs .40S&W debate interesting in that they say the advances in bullet technology make up for the 9mm's lack of power, but most also state that the 9mm is more easily handled and mastered by shooters. I think this was always the case, but you trade off stopping ability whenever you make that case. I do have three 9mms with another (SIG M11A1) on the way, but I do feel more confident with a .40S&W or a .45acp. Generally I carry either my Kimber, a Glock 30S or a SIG P227 all in .45.

I've had guns pulled on me four times and was shot at another three times. In two of those shootings I was at work and unarmed and I simply fled the area. The one time I was shot at from a good distance by a man with a pistol, I had a scoped semi-auto rifle. There was little doubt I could easily have hit him while he stood little chance of hitting me. Rather than shoot him I chose instead to scare him and put a string of shots right next to him, letting him know where he stood. In the end I was glad to be able to not shoot him. Most of my handgun training came from IPSC competition when I was young.
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

Hmmmm... If newer bullet designs are making the 9x19mm more effective for self defense (which I think they probably are) then aren't those same designs also making the .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, etc. more effective? If you are comparing them all to some "standard" then they all should improve relatively equally.

IMO it still boils down to picking the combination of characteristics (energy, recoil, comfort) that you are comfortable with. I still say that there are no magic bullets/cartridges/guns. As far as I know physics is still the rule of the known universe and, until someone starts selling those Star Trek phasers, we're just going to have to deal with the physics of chunkin' a solid projectile down range.

I've carried 9mms, .357 Mags, .40 S&Ws, .38 Specials, .380 Autos and .32 H&R Mags. These days I'm carrying either a .380 or 9mm, depending on circumstances (sometimes both). I'll probably switch back to a .40 after I spend more time with this particular gun and am confident with it.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I had a 9, didn't like it... sold it. Now I have a 380acp and a 40sw and love them both.

-DallanC
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

.38 Special: 140 gr Rem SJHP over 5 gr of W-231. S&W Mod 10 2" barrel
.380 ACP: 90 gr XTP over 3.1 gr of W-231. Bersa Thunder
9mmX19: 124 gr XTP over 5.1 gr of W-231. Firestar
.357 Mag: 140 gr Rem SJHP over 7.6 gr of W-231. S&W Mod 19 2 1/2"
Barrel
.45 ACP: 185 gr XTP over 7.7 gr of WSF. Kimber UCC II

These are my defense loads and weapons. Top two are my wifes.

Now to be flamed... Flame

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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lesterg3
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

Hey Bushy, I'll post mine and they'll all go so crazy they'll forget about yours.

380 ACP
Primer WSP, or Fed 100
90 GR HP/XTP
Powder Titegroup 3.2

9MM
Primer WSP, or Fed 100
115 GR HP/XTP
Powder Titegroup 4.8

38 Special Revolver
Primer WSP, or Fed 100
125 GR. HDY XTP
Powder Titegroup 4.6

357 Mag Revolver
Primer WSPM, or Fed 200
125 GR. HDY XTP
Powder Titegroup 7.5

40 S&W
Primer WSP, or Fed 100
155 GR. HDY XTP
Powder Titegroup 5.9

Have at it guys.

_________________
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "--Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I may as well get into the mix here as well;
357 Mag 140 JHP 19.1 grains of H110
45 Colt 200 JHP 11.9 HS6
40 S&W 180 JHP 9.1 HS7

The order is my order of preference.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I only load for target shooting
they are
38 SPL 158 hard cast 2.4 gn of Red Dot
32 Auto 70 hard cast 1.6 gn of Red Dot

A tin of powder lasts me a looooooooooooooonnng time.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I've been loading some 135 grain Nosler JHPs for my .40s. Using Universal Clays powder for somewhere around 1400 ft/sec (near as I can remember right now).

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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I have always thought about a 40 S&W but just never bought one. Sooner or later I will end up with one.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I almost bought another .40 today, a S&W M&P. Potential home repair costs held me back. They'll make more.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

I don't reload ammo for my defensive handguns. I usually buy either Federal loaded with Hydra Shock bullets or Speer loaded with Gold Dots, both labeled LE.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Hating the .40 S&W? Reply with quote

40 haters came about the minute the cartridge was born !!!
The 10mm crowd jumped on the short and weak bandwagon when it was decided to shorten the cartridge and produce a cartridge that was easier to control. Thus after testing concluded the 10mm was more gun than needed for defensive purpose.

The pressure issue is due in part to some ammo companies promoting +P loads.
SAAMI does not recognize +P for the .40 S&W.
Some say running a fully supported barrels will allow for +P pressures.

As for better bullets.....yes we have better bullets today.
What one needs to understand is smaller diameter bullets are harder to design and control. That has created a lag in development for the 9mm's and 380's.
Another problem with research on 9 performance is the fact that military fmj's have skewed the findings.

To my knowledge there is no research that proves one caliber/cartridge is better than another. All the info I've seen and read always comes down to bullet placement.
I carry a .45 most times, a .40S&W other times but I've come to realize a 9mm would work just as well.......

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