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Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol)
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

Ballistically speaking the 38 Spc.+P and 9mm are so close that they are indistinguishable. If you think the 9mm is so good then why have all police forces dropped the 38 Spc from use? The only advantage the 9mm has is more (ineffective) rounds before reloading. Look at the velocities that you get from your guns - no difference at all.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
why have all police forces dropped the 38 Spc from use?

To go with 9mm semi-autos that carries more than twice the rounds! Where are you getting the 38 +P is ballistically the same as a 9mm. Winchester 38 +P 125gr JPH was listed as 945 fps at the muzzle. That is almost 300 fps slower than my 9mm and I'm not shooting +Ps.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

I loaded for both and got the highest velocity loads (published) for each caliber and tested them through my chronograph. If I printed them out without the header files you could not tell which was which.
My loads were worked up using the Hodgdon and Speer manuals and tested on the same days over a period of weeks at the local police range.
Bullet weights tested were 110gr, 124/125gr, 140gr. I also used some 9mm bullets in the 38 that had higher velocities - attributed to the looser fit in the barrel. Some 38 rounds were faster by less than the Mean average deviation and some of the 9mm round were faster by less than the average mean deviation. They at least as close as two guns of the same caliber.
The reason I ran the test was the velocity similarities in the Speer manual were so close that I wanted to see if it was a real correlation or just a test abberation. Turned out the similarities are consistant with the ballistics of the calibers. 38 Spc.+P and 9mm are ballistic equivalents.
As far as I know there are no 9mm+p loads - none show in my manuals.

In my old (1978) Winchester manual they list the 100 gr 9mm at 1220 with 231 and 1210 with 630.
It also lists the 110gr 38 Spc+P at 1130 with 231 and 1220 with 630.

Comparing the 115gr 9mm at 1125 with both powders and the 125 gr 38 Spc +P at 1070 with 231 and 1150 with 630 shows this is not limited to just the two manuals I used.

I looked this info up because you mentioned winchester in your post.
Paul

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

So you ran your handloads hotter than Winchester loads their production 38 +P.

For all you ".45 ACP is King" worshipers, answer this questions. Would you rather be shot with a 9mm than a .45?

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Last edited by slimjim on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
For all you ".45 ACP is King" worshipers, answer this questions. Would you rather be shoot with a 9mm than a .45?

I take it that you meant shot rather than shoot? Very Happy Well I'd rather shoot a 45 and as far as getting shot by either, I'll pass. Laughing

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

Thanks OV1, corrected.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
So you ran your handloads hotter than Winchester loads their production 38 +P.

For all you ".45 ACP is King" worshipers, answer this questions. Would you rather be shot with a 9mm than a .45?

I won't get any volunteers that skoff at my 2" .38spl loads either. Funny how that works. Laughing

I won't even start the long off topic diatribe about small/light/fast vs. big/slow/heavy. ME is overrated and most fixate on speed, ME & ballistics gel. Same has been debunked over and over. The incapacitation value of a larger diameter defensive projectile and it's permanent wound cavity wins every time, it's simple phyisics. There's no replacement for displacement. Bigger is better.
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
it's simple phyisics. There's no replacement for displacement. Bigger is better.

Cheers Agreed.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
There's no replacement for displacement. Bigger is better.

When asked why the sheriff carred a .45, he replied "because they don't make a .46."

However, when I'm in shorts and a T-shirt in hot summer weather, pistol size is a more important factor to me to achieve good concealment. 9mm are my choice. When its winter and I wear a jacket, a full-size pistol in a larger caliber is easier to conceal.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

If we're talking about shooting round lead balls from a muzzle loader then yes, bigger is better. With the limitations of black powder the only way to get more energy is to go bigger. With modern bullets that argument isn't so clear cut.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

I agree Slimmers! That's why they make the Officers model! Laughing


Pumpkinslinger wrote:
[If we're talking about shooting round lead balls] from a muzzle loader then yes, bigger is better. With the limitations of black powder the only way to get more energy is to go bigger. [With modern bullets that argument isn't so clear cut.]

My point was regarding defensive pistol bullets as stated. And it is clear cut.

Like kind/make bullet in .355 and .452, the larger caliber expands more thus creating a larger permanent cavity. Incapcitating a threat requires one of two things- blood loss or nervous system disruption. The bigger the hole the better your chances of same.

One can acheive a similar result with [more faster smaller lighter projectiles] (on soft targets), or, with [less slower larger heavier ones].
Toss a car door or glass in there and the 9 fairs poorly.

The 9mm Parabellum has been tweaked to deaath over the past 30 years trying to make it more effective at stopping threats and it simply cant hold a candle to the 45ACP no matter how fast, slow or otherwise they push the dozens of projectiles they've brewed up for it.
The 9 is good....the 45 is better.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Velocity vs Barrel Length (Pistol) Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
So you ran your handloads hotter than Winchester loads their production 38 +P?

Not sure what you mean Slim??
Those loads were taken from the Winchester manual and they compared lighter 9mm bullets to slightly heavier 38 Spl. +P loads. The 38+P shooting bullets of the same weight (or slightly heavier in this case) are faster than 9mm both in the manual and at the range using listed loads. No need to load hotter than listed loads. (I rarely go up to max loadings in my reloading)
Paul

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