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Wolves ?!?!?
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Teknys
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Any one else have to deal with the politics of having wolves in their Deer and Elk country? Mad It's a little concerning to see canine tracks thats as big as your hand with your fingers spread out. We are seeing more and more wolf sign and sightings (personaly) and less and less Elk and Deer. Some hunters won't run their hounds for Bear with the fear of loosing all of them to Wolves.
This year we (I've talked with a few other people) have seen so little Deer and Elk sign that it's very concerning. Usually I'll see a couple of sightings of Elk and plenty of Deer in a week end. I've been in the woods 7 days and have 4 deer sightings to show for it with so little sign you would think the aliens took them.
Just wondering if it's just local to us(IDAHO) or any body else out west with Wolves?
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Welcome to the forums! Howdy

I know of how to deal with wolves and bears attacking your dogs. It's how the sheep and goat farms where my dad is from did it, as they could leave the dog in the field with the animals outside for hours alone at a time. Take a thick leather leash, drive 2.5-3.5" nails on it spaced apart enough to avoid the "bed of nails" effect but close enough it will work.

Wolves will attack the throat of their pray first, the nails will do the trick to give your dog a edge in a attack.

Dimitri

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Last edited by Dimitri on Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Mad My father lives in Idaho between Riggins and Grangeville.Everytime I go to visit he says the wolves are getting closer to his house-right next to hwy 95.They have driven the deer down to his yard where they feel safe sleeping right next to his living room window(about 10 ft) and his own dog is in a kennel 50 ft away!He's pretty concerned about his horses as I would be also,and he's already warned the"gamies" if his horses get chewed up he's gonna take some serious action.I heard that Idaho was going to have a wolf season this year-but I also heard that some SOB/POS judge put a stop to it with some influence by the "greenies",tree huggers,enviro terrorists! A few yrs ago wolves were not protected in oregon and the state gamies would just say that it must have been a wild dog and dogs are legal to shoot,but in the last two years I believe that the feds have come up with some financial influence to cause wolves to be protected now in the state of oregon,they have crossed the snake river at the hells canyon dam(as seen on film)and immigrated to oregon.........Oh well just another group of illegal aliens welcomed by salem. They will probably issue them "free" drivers licences and welfare also! Mad

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Of the many mysteries of life I ponder, such as infinity, the international date line and women in general, the reintroduction of wolves may be among the most baffling. Or maybe second most given my various relationships with the distaff gender.

My hunt area in Arizona is on the New Mexico border north of Springerville and in the process of scouting I've talked to numerous ranchers that all claim significant decline in deer which they attribute to the wolves. Four days of hard scouting has glassed up five bucks whereas ten years ago I could glass that many in a few hours. Livestock, too, has been lost to the wolves.

Ads are appearing in the regional newspapers calling for locals to join in an effort to curb further wolf populations. Under an ad called "Facts About the Mexican Grey Wolf", these are some figures that are noted:

- The cost per wolf introduced is $303,000 per animal.
- In a five year period, 250 wolves will kill over 7,000 head of livestock and game.
- The economic cost of these losses is a staggering $60,000,000 over a five year period.

This ad was submitted by American for Preservation of Western Environment, APWE, PO Box 612, Reserve, New Mexico 87830 with a link at info @ amprowest.org.

My opinion is that there is a lot of resistance to the reintroduction and I believe it is a matter of time until a serious human conflict and injury/death occur.

So, why was the wolf reintroduced? Why reintroduce grizzly? Why go to the extremes we have seen in the protected condor programs?
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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

What I'm going to say goes against the grain of this thread, but I can speak with some knowledge on this issue.

I've been around wolves my entire life, living in Northern Minnesota, and have worked some with Dr. Dave Mech on his wolf studies when I was younger.
Teknys, your lack of game is not because of the wolves in your area.
The herd is much too small to make that kind of impact.
My deer hunting area in Northern Minnesota is home of one of the biggest packs of wolves in North America.
As of this year with light winters for the past couple of years, our deer herd is so big, the we have been offered by the DNR, a bonus doe permit.
Last week while in the woods checking on my stands, the deer runs were full of deer droppings mixed with wolf scats everywhere.
Wolf's will only take down young, old and weak deer.
Where I see the impact of wolves in the area, is how the deer behave.
Opening day of deer season in my area is not the deer slaughter for us hunters like it is in areas where there is no wolves.
The deer behave like they have been hunted hard for weeks by hunters, instead of being stupid for a couple of days until pushed by humans.

Where wolves do have an adverse impact on herds, is when, during a hard winter, with lots of snow, and the weather turns warm and the snow starts to melt, then freezes again, it's Katy bar the door on deer kills.
The deer can't run fast to protect themselves, because they break trough the crust, and the wolves can run on top of the snow.

I have heard my entire life, hunters saying that the wolves have moved into their area, and the game is gone because of it. I take this with a grain of salt.
While working with Dave on his wolf studies over the years, the facts just don't jive with all of the hysteria.
Dr. Mech has found that what happens is what I see in my hunting area.

My family and I always seem to fill the freezer with venison, while at the same time hearing the wolf pack howl at night while snug in our beds.

My brother hates wolves just like you do, but he is a hard headed old fart, and is pretty much blind to the stories that the woods tells you, if you just look and listen out in Nature's Back Yard.

Keep an open mind, look and listen what the Wood's tells you, and you will see that wild game and wolves will coexist with very little adverse impact to either of their species.

Eric

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Hello Ely Boy: its good to see counterpoints of view and to hear of your first hand experience with the subject at hand. That said, can you make a case for reintroduction of wolves? If wolves have been eliminated from an area for decades, it seems the environment adapts and adjusts to their absence and that reintroduction sets the stage for conflict of existing fauna and livestock. Too, if wolf populations are thriving in some areas, such as those you cite, is there a case to made for expanding their territory?
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Wolves may claim the lives of many more deer then "normal" in the first few years of wolves being reintroduced into a area.

Think about it for a moment, the deer have had no natural predators in the area except for the possible lucky coyote pack that may have gotten a deer ever once in a blue moon, so the deer do not worry about it any run around in the area like they own the place. They have no need to pattern the wind and hide their movements from wolves. So when first introduced, the wolves will have a feast as they find dumb abundant deer anywhere they go. The deer may need a year or 2 to adapt or may adapt right away. Ether way the views of the hunters in the area is one of a "decrease" of the deer population ether real or imaginary because they do not see the deer in the area marching around freely as they did before they had to worry about wolves all year long. The deer and environment will adjust again as they did when the wolves disappeared just takes a little bit of time.

Northern Ontario has a large native timber wolf population and the moose herds are doing well.

As for the economic costs, I hate to say it but farmers need to adjust as well. In the past with wolf problems farmer did have actual working dogs to warn them of coyotes and wolves coming near the live stock, with some larger breeds being able to hold their own and defend the livestock themselves instead of waiting on the farmers. Donkeys will make a very loud call when wolves and coyotes are near by as well, warning both the wolves/coyotes and the farmer that it has detected their presence.

The wolves here are pushing more south every year it seems. No need for reintroduction but the complaints of "there are wolves/coyotes in the area we need to get rid of them" from farmers and hunters is the same thinking that wiped the wolves out. Preferring a quick and easy method then letting the natural habitat restore itself here.

Will it make it harder to fill your tags, quite possibly, as the deer will not be running around the fields rich in soy, corn and fruit like they own the place due to the thread of predators.

But when we have a huge deer population and for the last few years the MNR has been giving out up to 6 tags per area for hunters to hunt both bucks and does archery hunting for a 3-4 month season to help curb the population more then the old one doe tag (buck with a draw) per season policy used for many years. Will the wolves really make that big of a impact or is it more of hunters not wanting to share the deer population with anything else ?? Confused

Yes I know many areas with wolves being introduced do not have as much abundance in deer and other game populations, and I disagree with introducing wolves into areas where there is very low levels of game. But that is not a issue of wolves that's a issue of idiots and tree huggers running the DNR.

Dimitri

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

wtf It's all well a good to feel all sympathetic to the plyte of wolves,but it is an issue to farmers and ranchers that their livelihood and the financial status of rural communities are put in jeopardy due to an animal that was intentionally eradicated near to a century ago so that humans could inhabit an area and raise livestock basically unmolested.And as far as no natural preditors-there is the cougar that really is a deer killer,and it's population has really increased in recent years due to new pusuit(NO DOGS) regulations brought on by more of this touchy/feely crap-so that now we have cougars in the city limits of many areas of the PNW,eating cats,dogs and attacking humans.Thank you green peace,audabon society,peta,and hollywood for all of these gains for humanity.May a Kodiac bear give you all a back message! Shocked

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

TRBLSHTR,

Nothing wrong with a variety, and hunting strategies should be done up to limit the amount of any one animals populations to a balanced level. If the cougars are really out of control they need more hunting pressure.

Cougars do not inhabit many areas though. And introducing wolves in areas where there is a cougar population controlling the deer population makes no sense. Things need be thought out before being done. Sometimes people go about it the wrong way. And I do not agree with that.

Dimitri

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ElyBoy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Handloader, you are correct on the introduction of wolves to new places.
I blame the "Do gooder flower sniffers" for that happening.

Dimitri, as far had game animals not being used to the wolves, and thus, many more wolf kills, just look at it this way.
Opening day in most places, for the first weekend, the deer are stupid, and therefore easy to shoot. After the opener, they get smart, and are hard to come by. By this reasoning of mine, it won't take long for the deer, etc. to get smart, and harder to bring down.

As far as farmer's livestock , the farmers should be able to shoot any predator that kills their livestock.

I do see wolves getting blamed for a lot more than they do.

First, wolves get introduced into an area and I hear right away, within months that people see no game anymore in that area.
With all due respect I must say "hogwash"
Wolves aren't that efficient, and I'm sure that any dead livestock will be blamed on this same Wolf Pack.
Wolves simply don't eat that many animals, and, as stated, aren't that efficient.

I have seen Wolf Kills that are left uneaten.
What happens, is that a Pack may have a hunting area as big as 50 miles.
Later, as they swing back through the kill area, they will then eat their kill.

We have tracked radio collared wolves from where I live to Lake Superior's North Shore in little over a day, which is better than 50 miles. When time gets rough for them, they will travel many miles to eat.

Eric

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Teknys
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

I appreciate the responses on wolves. One thing I'll add is I help a Rancher friend of mine weekly up in the mtns checking cattle. As of yet we haven't lost any animals to wolves. The cattle's behaviour though is changing some what. Just last week, I watched 6 cows & 10 calfs come RUNNING from the top of the ridge down the ridgeline and through a draw. Total of about a mile. I've never seen them run like that in a craze. I was hunting at the time and took off on my wheeler to see what had spooked them so bad. I found no sign of what ever it was. It takes a bunch to get a cow to move faster than a walk and these ran for over a mile. Any body want to guess?

Here in the Mtns you can guess that when a winter is hard, i.e. Lots of snow, the Elk and Deer will winter down low and are concentrated. Wolves had a hay day this last winter on the North Fork of the Clearwater. I understand about balance and only taking the sick, weak and old but when they are hit hard with too much snow, it puts all of them at risk. The comment I read about "Kills" uneaten and still there. There was countless elk carcasses in the creeks along the banks that were just killed and untouched. These are Elk, lots of meat there and no where to go with all the snow.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

I've seen dog packs kill for sport but never wolves.

This argument is endless, It has been going on sense I was a kid, and thats quite a while ago.

A couple of years ago, I was sitting on my deer stand and a doe and fawn came running hell bent towards me.
The doe ran to my left and the fawn just to my right.
I figured that it was one of my family coming up to me, but here comes a wolf, just walking along by himself.
I guess that he gave up on the two deer.
He spent a better part of an hour not twenty five feet from me, eating a deer's gut pile that I had shot the day before.
I shot two deer that year, but that wolf encounter was more memorable to me than the deer that I shot.

In a couple of weeks my two sons and I, and the rest of my family, will hit the woods again, smack dab in the middle of wolf pack country.
Guarantee, there will be venison in all of our freezers this winter.

Eric

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Teknys
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

I lived in Grand Rapids, MN (Pokegama Lake)back in the mid 70's. The Sheriff would come out to our house twice a year to talk about the dog packs around the area. Our Lab starting running with them and when my she came back 3 weeks later, lived out the rest of here life on a chain - Dog Run in the back yard. I remember that Sheriff asking me to shoot all dogs that were not known to us(I was just a kid of 12 years). We had neighbors that lost all their dogs, cats and fowl to these packs.
Looking back on it (years ago!) those packs of dogs are more dangerous, No fear of people and property.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

Teknys wrote:
I lived in Grand Rapids, MN (Pokegama Lake)back in the mid 70's. The Sheriff would come out to our house twice a year to talk about the dog packs around the area. Our Lab starting running with them and when my she came back 3 weeks later, lived out the rest of here life on a chain - Dog Run in the back yard. I remember that Sheriff asking me to shoot all dogs that were not known to us(I was just a kid of 12 years). We had neighbors that lost all their dogs, cats and fowl to these packs.
Looking back on it (years ago!) those packs of dogs are more dangerous, No fear of people and property.
Looking back on it (years ago!) those packs of dogs are more dangerous, No fear of people and property.

Thats the proplem with these re-indroduced wolf packs, they are born and raised in captivity fpr the most part, then they are let go in the wild to survive or die.

sorry to say, there is no comparison to wild packs.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: Wolves ?!?!? Reply with quote

I have to come down on the side of wolves not necessarily impacting game species as much as they do livestock. Any predator is by nature a creature of opportunity. It is far easier to raid a pen full of sheep, calves or chickens than it is to chase elusive quarry such as deer. Around my area this is what is happening with coyotes and rumors of wolves in the northern areas drifting down from Wisconsin. This, more than anything else, makes me wonder at the reasoning for re-introducing wolves in areas under the guise of "deer herd control".

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