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looking for some old 44-40 loading dies
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
Kinda hard to tell from the photos. A better photo of the receiver would help. It sure looks like a Winchester 1886 to me. Here's a pic >> upload.wikimedia.org/w...%2C_05.JPG

The 1886 was designed for larger cartridges so I'm betting that yours isn't a .44-40. There should be some caliber/cartridge info on it somewhere.

Pumpkin, what's that semi-auto beneath the 3 lever actions? I somewhere have an old Winchester model 1903, not even in .22 LR, but in .22 Winchester Automatic. I think it's related to the one you show, only mine has no magazin in front of the trigger, but such a tube magazin inside the stock (like the FN/Browning Auto-22).
But it also has such a 'stick' coming out of the forehandwood that's connected to the receiver ((like the .22 LR semi-autos of Saint-Etienne - France).
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dan1dad
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

posted some close up , better photos for you. Thanks for reminding me to use the macro Ominivision, Im such a dope. And I mean that because I had not noticed something very important to the gun that could have easily helped ID it. Right on the gun it says, Model 1886 !!!

Sorry, just brought all these things home and Im still trying to work out what I have. Geeze, dont I feel like a dope.

s281.photobucket.com/a...1dad/BANG/
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

The picture of the tang portion of the rifle (third picture) clearly says Model 1886. Since the 1886 was never produced with a gunmetal receiver, I would guess what you see is patina from age.

The 1886 was chambered for .45-70, .45-90 WCF, .40-82 WCF, .40-65 WCF, .38-56 WCF, .50-110 WCF, .40-70, .38-70, .50-100-450 and .33 WCF.

They were first made with traditional steel barrels until about 1895 when they were changed to the much stronger nickel-steel barrels. The 1886 was designed for serious hunting and was not produced in .44-40 caliber.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Now that we've got the model figured out I want to know what cartridge its chambered for! I once got to shoot an original 1886 in .45-70 in a 400 yard match and won! 5 for 5 on a 12" by 18" steel plate. I offered to buy the gun right then but the owner turned me down.

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dan1dad
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

so before I open my mouth again and even look like more of a fool than I did over missing the Model 1886 on the tang, I am just going to ask. Does anyone think this gun is worth much? Should I attempt to shoot it or not?

I'm heading to my Dads tomorrow morning and will try to find out more about it from him, like, what caliber it is. I see no markings on it anywhere indicating caliber and I dont know how to find out. SO I will ask the previous owner. Hell, he probably still has some ammo for it somewhere knowing him.

and a big thanks to everyone for tolerating my ignorance ; of which lately I have a abundance of... :-)
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

google 1866 colectors and have a look for your self. I would take it to a gunsmith to be checked over if it was mine.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Whats it worth?
As always in monetary terms, whatever someone is prepared to pay for it.
Its emotional attachment value due to being your fathers and handed down to you, thats up to you, depends I suppose on how close you two are.

Do as you've mentioned about further ID and caliber.
And I agree with Elvis, get a gunsmith to give it a good going over.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

dan1dad wrote:
so before I open my mouth again and even look like more of a fool than I did over missing the Model 1886 on the tang, I am just going to ask. Does anyone think this gun is worth much? Should I attempt to shoot it or not?

I'm heading to my Dads tomorrow morning and will try to find out more about it from him, like, what caliber it is. I see no markings on it anywhere indicating caliber and I dont know how to find out. SO I will ask the previous owner. Hell, he probably still has some ammo for it somewhere knowing him.

and a big thanks to everyone for tolerating my ignorance ; of which lately I have a abundance of... :-)

We are getting there DD...check out this link mate...might give you more info.

As Single Shot says...the colour is the brownish-grey patina that was used during those days...most likely from "blueing" with Nitride Salts.

Calibre...I don't know without having a real close look...but I am thinking it could be a 40/82.

I wouldn't even consider firing it until you know 100% what the correct calibre is and you have had the rifle checked by a gunsmith and have sourced black powder age appropriate loads.

Cheers, Vince

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Aloy, the caption for that pic says its a 1905 Self Loading >> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Model_1905

Lyman has loading info for some of those old cartridges, as does SPG.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Pumpkin, they even give the link to the Model 1903
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Model_1903
so sometimes my memory is still working OK, altough such moments don't come so often anymore as it used to be.
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

I would add that a great place to start learning about the 1886 and other Winchesters is to get a copy of Rifle Magazine's Winter 2000 special edition titled The Legacy Of Lever Guns. It has great info and not only a complete list of the various calibers but loading info to help get you started. It also has a list of Winchester serial numbers to help date your rifles.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

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dan1dad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

OK, according to dad,,,,

its a 45-70... still fires great, has a shit load of cartridges, primers, powders, bullets and bullet molds, as well as dies and a new spare barrel still in the original cardboard shipping tube with a post mark of 1936 on it. . Is giving me everything for it. The barrel and receiver is in excellent shape and to keep them that way he said that IF I want to shoot it Occasionally, he would not use anything except IMR 4227 in light loads. [under 40gr he suggested] Shoot for fun, not for hunting or serious shooting. That way I will be sure not to over stress the gun as its old.

the 22 was bought off an old carnival booth operate back in the 1930's for $15 and had has thousands of rounds of 22 shorts put through it. That , the winchester model 97 [ I have now ] and the 1906 22 Remington pump my granddad gave me when I was 15 , was the 3 weapons used mostly during the depression for rabbit hunting from the running boards of the model A. In fact, my dad said when he was in grade school, he use to take the 1873 22 to school, put it in his locker [no lock] and then he and his friends would all go hunting after school in the marsh areas by the Mississippi river. Things sure have changed a lot since he went to school.

that is from the kitchen table about 45 minutes ago.

Also, as a side humorous note, Dad told me when he went to high school kids use to jump the running boards and ride on the model A. So he took an old wooden boxed model A Ford Coil and wired it to the door handles, put a switch for it on the dash. In Dads words, " That stopped that silly shit ,quickly"
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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Good that you found out what caliber it was, however I would be really leery about shooting smokeless powder in a rifle designed for BP. Plus the fact that the rifle is over 100 years old, if it was mine I would take it to a smith and have him check it out and if he says it was ok, I would run mild BP loads through it if I shot it at all.

Just my 2 cents.

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dan1dad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

Omni, dont worry, I doubt I will ever shoot it. Its to old, to rare and means to much personally. And really, as far as I know, my dad is about the best gunsmith around. For years people have gone to him to work on guns so called "professional" gun smiths either couldnt fix, or screwed up. He has been working on them for decades. Even built his first rifle from raw steel when he was 15 on my grandpas lathe, even rifled it, and hasnt stopped working on and learning about them ever since. Just cause someone hangs a shingle and calls themselves a pro, dont make it so. Ive seen his work over 49 years of my life, and he has never ever had a complaint or return. and he has worked on hundreds of them for friends and acquaintances. I trust him completely on his gun smithing knowledge and skills. Now his memory is getting a little rusty and his hands a little shaky at 81 years old, but if he says its good to shoot, thats better than any gun smith alive can do.

Just wish I would have pushed the issue of learning more from him when he, and I , were younger. Now he is trying to teach me, but its not as easy for either one of us. Especially with me living 3 hours away from his place.
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dan1dad
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: looking for some old 44-40 loading dies Reply with quote

the 22 model I have says model 1873 on the tang. 53129*b is the serial number on the bottom tang by the safety, and barely visible on the receiver end of the barrel is says 22 short.


I found this sight with some other guns like it, www.collectorsfirearms...bcatID=172

I'm surprised at the prices these old rifles are getting. And some of them have nicks, pits and scars and still are in the thousands of dollars.


by they way, the serial on the 1886 is 5785* astrict is because I dont know if full serial numbers could cause someone to claim its theirs later on. fraud is a worry. and as you guys pointed out, these were my dads, and my granddads and one was even my great granddads, so Id like to keep them around for as long as I can, and pass them on to my daughters.

If they are rare enough , Im thinking of doing a loan with a museum for safe keepings maybe. just a though,not sure how that all works.


Oh, and FYI, I learned a very important lesson from all of this here. Humility.. and, to always look for numbers and letters on all the guns. They might just tell you what you want to know! Very Happy
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