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The dilema
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:55 am    Post subject: The dilema Reply with quote

I currently have a bitza mauser 25/06 that I've had for nearly 30 yrs, famage massaged k98 action and a sprinter arms barrel,total cost about $350 1984 dollars.
Well the bloody thing has become more variable than me lately, one group of 5 rds it will punch a .6 inch hole at 100m and the next 5 rds it will spray them into a 2 inch group. Its just fired its 1000th round. Consistancy is no longer in its job description it seems. This is with reloads that have always shot well before. The nut behind the but (me) can shoot moa groups with the remington 788 .222 with reloads all day.
The mauser has had a new scope, new rings, been cleaned to within an inch of its life and had a borescope through the bore with no unexpected wear or damage found.
A small burr on the locking recess of the action was removed.
The bore miked out at .001 oversize in parts. Trigger is around 2lb and the action is bedded and the barrel floated.
I've lost faith in the old girl. I cant find a definative problem and neither can the 2 local gunsmiths.
I have also just ordered a CZ 453 varmint in .22lr it will be here sometime in the next 2 weeks.
While looking around at rimfires I've also had the chance to have a look at a lot of new centrefires, Tikka T3 in 25/06 is one and CZ 550 in .308 is another.
Well the T3 in 25/06 and laminated stock is around $1500 here and the CZ is around $1035 and a rebarrel is around $500 for a heavy duty chrome moly barrel in 25/06.
The dilema? Do I step into the main stream and get a .308? ( the scottish side of me is pointing out the buy one get one free side of the equation).
Is the .308 a big enough jump in capability to justify less room in the gun safe?
Oh and the wife said yes? Im in shock Laughing

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

# 1 - SWMBO has given you the all clear for a .308...why are you asking if you should get one mate? Shocked wtf Confused Run, don't walk, to your preferred gunshop and see what's available. Seriously though...the .308 is one of the most versatile calibres on the market.

# 2 - Have you changed anything with your load?

# 3 - Have you changed anything with your method of loading?

# 4 - When was the last time you check your reloading setup for anomalies?

I would be having a look at #4 first, the #3 and finally #2. If there is a problem with your dies or powder throw or scales etc, then that will cause differences with both # 2 and #3

I am assuming that the gunsmiths did the usual checks like headspace, throat erosion, scope, scope rings and mount etc, so really that only leaves the rounds or loads as the possible culprit mate.

Cheers, Vince

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

how about a rebarrel for the old girl???but 1000rounds seems like not a hang of alot to chew out a barrel. why not rebarrel to something else like .270 or .280 or 30/06 if you have a .222 something with some grunt like the 06 may give you some versatility. I own a .270 and love it I load 170grn for the scrub/bush and good accurate 130grn for distance work. the .223 takes care of small stuff. keep us posted on which way you go.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
# 1 - SWMBO has given you the all clear for a .308...why are you asking if you should get one mate? Shocked wtf Confused Run, don't walk, to your preferred gunshop and see what's available. Seriously though...the .308 is one of the most versatile calibres on the market.

# 2 - Have you changed anything with your load?

# 3 - Have you changed anything with your method of loading?

# 4 - When was the last time you check your reloading setup for anomalies?

I would be having a look at #4 first, the #3 and finally #2. If there is a problem with your dies or powder throw or scales etc, then that will cause differences with both # 2 and #3

I am assuming that the gunsmiths did the usual checks like headspace, throat erosion, scope, scope rings and mount etc, so really that only leaves the rounds or loads as the possible culprit mate.

Cheers, Vince

#1 Warming up for the run now. A CZ 550 in .308 is attractive, will go well with the CZ 453 .22lr.

#2 This problem actually started before I got sick, which is why I've fitted new scope/rings, refitted the base mounts with locktite and a torque screwdriver, replaced a lot of my old reloading gear including the scales which were starting to stick and got new sizing and seating dies and a new press (because).
Also got a whole lot of stuff for flash and primer holes I never before knew existed.
Cases are sized, trimmed, and have less than 1/2 thou run out at the necks, necks are the same thickness and od. Loaded ammo has less than .002 thou runout.
Powder charges are individually weighed.
I had been developing a new load, heavier bullet same powder as my last accurate load. I used the old known accurate load as sighters, these it appears are also no longer consistent. I thought I had nailed 1 load with 115grn noslers, got a few good groups in the development ladder so i loaded up 10 of this load, 5 went into .6" again like the first time I tried this load, I ran a dry patch through the bore as it had done around 25 rds and the next 5 of the same load did 1.5". It does the same thing with 120 grn speers and a quicker powder. If I dont run a patch through it, or from clean it starts out in the 2 to 3 inch range tightens up over the next 15 rds and then starts to spray them again.

Powder and primers are fresh, the problem started with the older stock I had.
The problem persists with different speed powders.
Bullets around .015 off the lands.
Velocities are within 20 fps of each other.
No unexpected wear in the barrel, crown is OK as well,just the .001 o/s which its probably had since 1982 when the barrel was made.
Barrel has been throughly cleaned with solvents and JB bore paste and bore bright, it is clean.


#3 and #4 yeah, I'm more anal and everthings been checked or renewed.

So I have run around in circles and have basically disappered up my own fundamental oriface trying to fix this, the only thing left is the barrel.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:33 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Well...it's got me mate. I can't see that you have missed anything, so I suppose it's back to the drawing board...back to basics.

What sort of things cause these problems?

Scope, Rings and Mount
Barrel, Throat or Crown, does the problem get worse as the barrel heats up, does it improve if the barrel is allowed to totally cool
Stock, Bedding, Mounting Screws (mine must be tightened in a certain order or groups turn to cack)
Loading components - dodgy batch of powder (it's possible)

The final thing to consider is the most important nut...the one behind the butt. How are your eyes mate? My accuracy turned to cack and it turned out I have a "water logged" eye which gave me a totally inconsistent sight picture, not to mention "broken and squiggly" cross hairs in the scope.

Apart from all of the above, I cannot think of anything else that would cause this sort of inconsistency mate. Maybe Elvis has the best idea...rebarrel the old girl. MAB at Everton Hills makes a magnificent barrel, and you won't have to mortgage the house to get one fitted.

I'll be very interested to find out what the problem is...and the solution.

Cheers, Vince

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

I agree with Vince on getting back to the basics, first thing I would do is take the scope off and use the iron sights. 1000 rounds should not wear out a barrel if your handloads are not hot-rodded. Heck, I've got a M700 22-250 with over 5000 rounds through it and it still shoots moa. I would take the scope off and try that first.

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camel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

G'day mate. Go the cz453 varmint. I have two of them that I use in my professional shooting, I guarantee that it will impress you. Mine are in 22lr and 17hmr, both are stock standard at the moment and they shoot unreal. I use the 22lr the most as rabbits are the main target, just aim at the eye and you got them. Am in the process of getting two thumbhole stocks for them. One thing that I do (or should say dont do) is clean the barrel very often, this might be strange to some people, but have found that my rifle likes a dirty barrel. I have to clean the chamber and bolt face, and mainly under the extractor (right side bolt claw) and the guide (left side bolt claw). I spose you realise that with rimfire rifles, even two made consecutively, behave totally different.
You really cant got wrong with one.
Another thing is that straight out of the box, the action is a bit rough, but a couple of hours polishing the cocking cam sleve on the bolt, and other areas in the action, locking lug area and then over time they smooth up nicely.
Have fun Party camel

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

MAB was where I was yesterday, having the bore examined. He currently running at a 10 to 12 week turn around, good to see a local business very busy. Alan Swan also had a look at it a few weeks ago, hes got a 2 to 3 week turnaround for a new barrel.
I admit my eyesight has gone to poo since the chemo, but this started before I got zapped and poisoned.

Stock screws , played around and even bought a torque screwdriver, no change.

It probably gets better for a bit as it heats up, but goes to pot if hot, sometimes, no real consistancy.
Bedding good, barrel has no contact hot or cold, nothing loose or rattling.
As I stated a new tikka is $1500, a new CZ500 + new barrel on the 25/06 is also $1500 the scots half of me likes that.
Well I havent bought a new rifle in 28 yrs, looks like I might get 2 in 1 week(wonder what the wife payback on that is?)
I'll just have to find a few hundred extra for another scope and reloading gear for .308 and try a new barrel and the light projectiles for the 25/06 and give English Mikes PD's a touchup..............
I starting to think I've started something here...........

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camel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Just a thought on the 25/06 mate, have you had the throat checked, maybe just a matter of cutting a thread off and a new chamber run in. Possible throat errosion. But that depends on what load you are running. Never had one myself but have heard and read that they are pretty severe in that department.

P.S. Can I borrow your missus, mine growls each time I tell her I'm getting new toy. Now I dont tell her Laughing

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:17 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

At MAB yesterday...bugger...he is about a 10 minute drive from me mate. In fact I was on Queens Rd at about 1pm...200 metres from his factory.

Started something...yep, sure have...but we love this sort of problem. I can't speak for the others here, but it is this sort of thing that I learn from.

Something else you could give a try...put some factory rounds through it and see if that makes any difference. Maybe shoot one or two groups with factory, then a couple with handloads, and when it goes off, go back to factory to see if it fixes the problem. Also, get someone else to shoot a couple of groups for you...and ask them if they could put some groups down with your ammo in their rifle. Try to eliminate every variable, one at a time.

Cheers, Vince

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Ominivision1 wrote:
I agree with Vince on getting back to the basics, first thing I would do is take the scope off and use the iron sights. 1000 rounds should not wear out a barrel if your handloads are not hot-rodded. Heck, I've got a M700 22-250 with over 5000 rounds through it and it still shoots moa. I would take the scope off and try that first.

This thing hasn't had iron sights since 1983, nor is there anywhere to put them.

I have changed the scope and the rings and remounted the base and loctited it, no change. The scope that came off is doing sterling duty on my .222.
Hand loads are up within a grain of max which is where it likes to group or it did in the past.
I'll give some factories a go as thats about the only thing I havent done yet.

Cheers

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

camel wrote:
Just a thought on the 25/06 mate, have you had the throat checked, maybe just a matter of cutting a thread off and a new chamber run in. Possible throat errosion. But that depends on what load you are running. Never had one myself but have heard and read that they are pretty severe in that department.

P.S. Can I borrow your missus, mine growls each time I tell her I'm getting new toy. Now I dont tell her Laughing

Throat check, done no obvious excessive wear/ damage / erosion. It is .001 " oversize in a few spots, it was made 30 years ago.

Sorry, Im on wife #3, took a long time to find this one and I doubt she'll let me rent her out.........But if you're prepared for sever flack in stereo I'll ask.

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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
At MAB yesterday...bugger...he is about a 10 minute drive from me mate. In fact I was on Queens Rd at about 1pm...200 metres from his factory.

Started something...yep, sure have...but we love this sort of problem. I can't speak for the others here, but it is this sort of thing that I learn from.

Something else you could give a try...put some factory rounds through it and see if that makes any difference. Maybe shoot one or two groups with factory, then a couple with handloads, and when it goes off, go back to factory to see if it fixes the problem. Also, get someone else to shoot a couple of groups for you...and ask them if they could put some groups down with your ammo in their rifle. Try to eliminate every variable, one at a time.

Cheers, Vince

I left there around 12. Had lunch at Mt Glorious.
I was look at some factory ammo today only 90 grainers thou, which was all they had. I might give them a go on next Friday or monday. Other 25/06 are a bit thin on the ground at ripley.
I might load up about 30 of the load that sometimes works real well and compareand play around with bedding screws and see what happens.
I'd like to find the problem as I'm quite fond of the old girl.
Or I could use my lunch pass and buy a new gun.

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Last edited by dhc4ever on Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

camel wrote:
G'day mate. Go the cz453 varmint. I have two of them that I use in my professional shooting, I guarantee that it will impress you. Mine are in 22lr and 17hmr, both are stock standard at the moment and they shoot unreal. I use the 22lr the most as rabbits are the main target, just aim at the eye and you got them. Am in the process of getting two thumbhole stocks for them. One thing that I do (or should say dont do) is clean the barrel very often, this might be strange to some people, but have found that my rifle likes a dirty barrel. I have to clean the chamber and bolt face, and mainly under the extractor (right side bolt claw) and the guide (left side bolt claw). I spose you realise that with rimfire rifles, even two made consecutively, behave totally different.
You really cant got wrong with one.
Another thing is that straight out of the box, the action is a bit rough, but a couple of hours polishing the cocking cam sleve on the bolt, and other areas in the action, locking lug area and then over time they smooth up nicely.
Have fun Party camel

453 is on the way, waiting for the PTA to clear.
I was going to ask you what you were using, now I know. What ammo have you found accurate?
Looking forward to finding out what it likes to shoot. Just what I need, another puzzle.
Have read a bit on bolt smoothing and trigger adjustments, but I figure I'll put a brick through it before I do anything and see how it settles down.

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camel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: The dilema Reply with quote

Am just using stock standard Win Power Points, tried a few others but they seem to be the most consistant. Am a bit limited with choice of ammo I can get out here in the boonies. Would like to try some of the other win stuff ie super speed but lgs doesnt stock it. Will just have to wait till I get away to the big smoke sometime.
When I got the 22lr, it was just a bit rough and didnt take too much time to smooth up, but the Hmr which I got about 12 months later, well it must have been made last shift on the friday before xmas holidays, They were like cheese and chalk, cocking cam looked like some of the corrigations in the roads out here, and the locking lug had a couple of sharp burrs on it that took tiny slivers of metal out of the seat each time the bolt was closed. That one took a good eight hours polishing with diamond hones and 1000 grit wet and dry. Still thats a good way to spend a rainy day. The magazine was loose in the housing and still is as I havent had time to play around with it yet. Very dissapointing from CZ. I have five of their rifles, either Brno or CZ, and cant fault any of them for accuracy, just the quality control seems to have gone off the rails in the last few years. Other rifles are Brno ZKK601 in .308win, Zkw465 in .22 Johnson, and my first .22 I brought new in 1973, have also had a .22 Hornet and a 30.06.
Zkk600.
The .22 will put shots through rabbits eyes out to 50 yds all night, and the Hmr will put 5 inside a 10c piece if I do my part.
Still with the few faults I had in my case, they are still one of the best made for reliability and functioning and I wouldnt use any thing else in my profession.
My biggest problem is the 10 shot mags seem to empty too quickly, and I use 5 of them.
One other thing is I adjusted my trigger so it wouldnt set and got it down to a release weight of about 1/2 pound. Still safe but you have to be aware of it, when set that fine, until I got used to it, sometimes I would pull the bolt back a little hard and the bolt would come half way out. Real bugger when trying for a few quick shots and the bunnies are a bit toey. Now I'm used to it theres no problem.
Have no doubt you will have heaps of enjoyment with that fine rifle. camel

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