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New brass........
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

It's a wise idea to inspect new brass, you never know how rough it has been handled.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

New brass should be treated just the same as once fired or any used brass. Resize, debur and chamfer, measure and trim if needed...This will insure there are no deformities or other manufacturing errors...

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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

Exactly!

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:37 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

stovepipe wrote:
Sat down Saturday and started inspecting one of the bags.

Approx 20 or so were short on one side a couple or 3 thou. so they'll need to be trimmed to square up the mouth.

What you ought to try for your own edification is to load up a few of the cases that are "short on one side" and see if it makes an appreciable difference in accuracy. My prediction; you will see no measurable difference.

If you were to check factory ammunition, you would also probably find cases with mouths not perfectly square. In addition, being a straightwalled cartridge loaded to relatively low pressure, 44 Remington cases that are crimped for use in autoloaders or revolvers would probably never needed to be trimmed before they were junked for cracking around the case mouth from repeated crimping.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:

If you were to check factory ammunition, you would also probably find cases with mouths not perfectly square.

Good point as the once fired brass I've reloaded exhibits the same condition in some cases.

*

Good input gang, thanks.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

But the whole idea of reloading is to manufacture "better then factory" ammunition. I will (when I have new brass) contimue to insure it is as near perfect as I can get it. I've seen some real rough "new" brass that really needed clening up with a resizing die and tumbled. In my opinion "new" brass has only one feature that once fired brass doesn't have. One more loading. Other then that...It's the same.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

I'm with Bushy. The key to accuracy is consistency. Let's say I take new brass and, without sizing it in my dies, I work up a load that's really good. Then I take those same cases and run them through my dies. Now my case dimensions are bound to be somewhat different than the new brass was. The efforts I made working up the load may be for naught because of the different dimension. If you’re just loading plinking loads it wouldn’t make any difference but if you’re after accuracy then why not go ahead and make sure the cases have the same dimensions from the beginning.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

I agree with both of you. I was a little on the fence about sizing first....then I thought post size the case volume can change, no? You all made a good point and confirmed this tought.

Since these will be my 'test load' brass looking for a certain recipe for one particular shooter, why not eliminate variables?

Consistency is key.

I've already got several hundred plinking cases so that end of it is covered. Time to knuckle down and take the time to 'one atta time' a couple of boxes.

I had a few variables and ideas floating around in my head about this issue, thanks guys for allinging my train of thought.
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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

The only way to get consistent accuracy is to have consistent components.

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

Gentlemen,

I have loaded thousands of rounds of ammo and I can attest that unless you have a gun of bench rest quality, you will not produce more accurate ammo with resized brass than you will with factory new brass that you haven't messed with. In fact, you you compare them, you will very likely find that unmessed with factory brass produces more accurate loads.

It is true that there could very likely be a difference in impact points of the bullets with new vs resized brass but accuracy won't suffer. I have loaded new brass from Remington, Federal, Hornady, Starline, Nosler and Winchester and except for the one exception mentioned way up high in this thread, I've never resized or trimmed any of it.

I inspect every case I load and have had to discard a very few cases due to major defects. In hundreds of rounds loaded there have also been a few where I had to round the case mouth out a bit and that's all.

Resizing and trimming new brass won't hurt anything but it's a waste of time I'd rather spend on something else.
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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

[quote="Grumulkin"]

It is true that there could very likely be a difference in impact points of the bullets with new vs resized brass but accuracy won't suffer.

Confused What is accuracy if it is NOT the consistant impact point of the bullet??????? Shocked

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."

US ARMY RETIRED

The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.

Being "Over the Hill" is much better then being under it!
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

Accuracy and consistency are 2 separate things !!!

Accuracy is being able to hit something where you want to.
Consistency is being able to do it every time.

With the said bullet dropping from it’s original POI, the consistency doesn’t change the POI does.
If the original POI needs to be maintained then a adjustment in the hold point needs to be changed.

An expectation is usually associated with the 2 terms.
This is where I believe people start confusing things.
I once had a .308 that consistently shot 2 inch groups, I could hit a 3” target at a hundred yards every time. Man that gun was accurate !!!
But I’d never consider taking it to a bench rest match.

(that gun went by by long ago !!!)

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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

You make a good point,but how do you know if a gun is accurate if it is not consistent?

When you start to work up a load how many shells do you load?

If you are zeroing a rifle how many shots do you fire per grouping?

How many shots do you fire to confirm a load is accurate?

Call me stupid but I will not rely on one shot to decide if a gun is accurate. I will however fire three rounds to see if it is consistent, only then will I call it accurate. You can't have one with out the other.

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."

US ARMY RETIRED

The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.

Being "Over the Hill" is much better then being under it!
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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote



An accurate enough load with new unsized brass.



An accurate enough load with previously fired and resized brass. I would consider both accurate and consistent but with different impact points of the respective groups.

It's not that hard to understand is it?

By the way, without specifying the number of shots and the range, discussions about "accuracy" are pretty meaningless.
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: New brass........ Reply with quote

Quote::
It's not that hard to understand is it?

Nope- and, I'm talking straight wall pistol brass. The whole case gets sized. (un fire-formed)

They get that treatment everytime they are fired so... why even try to work on a recipe w/o all things being equal? I already have several hundred mixed cases I use for combat focus pactice and plinking etc... light loads and the dim's rarely change. Some are on their 10th reload and have not split or failed yet.

The new brass is for single-stage hand-rolling.

Quote::
Resizing and trimming new brass won't hurt anything but it's a waste of time

I have a progressive press for most pistol stuff. 100 cases gets sized and de-capped in under 5 mins., if, I'm working really slow.

The worst that can happen from me 'messing with them first' is squared mouths, a uniform crimp, the correct COAL and it not making a difference, IMHO. I was a little on the fence about it but after some thought it makes sense to get this step into the works from the gitgo.

It'll only be unfired once. It'll be fired and resized a bunch.

Matter of fact- I have enough to make two batches.... one pre-sized and one left alone.... should be interesting results. The pistol these'll be used in comes back from the Smith in the not too distant future and with that I'll do some testing and post the results....
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