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How to make a click chart?? MOA???
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jb22-250
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

I was just curious if anyone could give me any information on how to make a click chart. And I would also like some clarification on what minute of angle MOA means. Is there any good sources to study and find out what this means and or how to make a click chart. I have no problem with taking the time to figure these things out I just cannot find any sources to help me. Thank you very much this website has been a great help!!!
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roklok
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

Click Chart? as in how many clicks of a scope turrent to allow a direct hold on a distant target? First off, one MOA is 1.047 inch at 100 yards. It is easier to just think of it as 1 inch for every one hundred yards. For example at 500 yards one MOA equals 5 inches. I will give an example of the application I believe you are talking about. Hypothetical example: If you determine that your bullet is impacting 15 inches low at 400 yards, to bring the point of impact up to line of sight and supposing that your scope has 1/4 MOA clicks you would have to turn your elevation turrent 15 clicks up. This is because 1/4 MOA equals 1 inch at 400 yards. 15 inches low= 15 clicks. At 600 yards if your bullet is impacting 45 inches low you would have to turn your elevation turrent up 30 clicks. This is because at 600 yards one click(or 1/4 MOA)= 1.5 inches. These are just examples, you will have to figure out the drop for your particular rifle and load, but hopefully this gives you an idea of how to do it. One word of caution, if you try this with anything less than high quality optics you will probably feel like pulling your hair out and screaming untold obscenities as a lot of cheaper scopes do not have accurate and repeatable clicks. To avoid commitment in the local looney bin make sure that your scope adjustments actually move point of impact the amount stated whether it be 1/4 or 1/8 MOA.
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

roklok wrote:
Click Chart? as in how many clicks of a scope turrent to allow a direct hold on a distant target? First off, one MOA is 1.047 inch at 100 yards. It is easier to just think of it as 1 inch for every one hundred yards. For example at 500 yards one MOA equals 5 inches. I will give an example of the application I believe you are talking about. Hypothetical example: If you determine that your bullet is impacting 15 inches low at 400 yards, to bring the point of impact up to line of sight and supposing that your scope has 1/4 MOA clicks you would have to turn your elevation turrent 15 clicks up. This is because 1/4 MOA equals 1 inch at 400 yards. 15 inches low= 15 clicks. At 600 yards if your bullet is impacting 45 inches low you would have to turn your elevation turrent up 30 clicks. This is because at 600 yards one click(or 1/4 MOA)= 1.5 inches. These are just examples, you will have to figure out the drop for your particular rifle and load, but hopefully this gives you an idea of how to do it. One word of caution, if you try this with anything less than high quality optics you will probably feel like pulling your hair out and screaming untold obscenities as a lot of cheaper scopes do not have accurate and repeatable clicks. To avoid commitment in the local looney bin make sure that your scope adjustments actually move point of impact the amount stated whether it be 1/4 or 1/8 MOA.

I struggled with confirming published MOA adjustments until I learned to "shoot the corners"...

It will help your confidence tremendously.....

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

There is a great book available called "Understanding Firearm Ballistics" by Rinker. I always recommend it to anyone seriously interested in shooting.

A "minute of angle" is a measurement of angle equal to 1/60th of a degree, i.e. there are sixty minutes in one degree of angle.

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

Rolok does a good job explaining how to use MOA in the field. I'll throw in my 0.02 here as well. Dallan has indicated that "come up clicks" may be a part of the next revision of point blank. There is another web page that has a ballistics calculator that provides that data as well here is the link.

Come up click calculator

I use this and print out the final result and tape it to the stock of my rifle.

I will say that after using it for a while you just know your load and it is only a reference to check.

I would be remiss if I did not mention two other points to consider that I bring up with regularity when new shooters start to talk about long range hunting and shooting.

First - Point Blank Zero. If you are wanting to shoot a coyote with a varmint load moving over 3300 fps you can set your scope so that the trajectory of the bullet is never more than a couple of inches above or below the line of sight indicated by the cross hairs on your scope. With this setting you hold the center of the body from 25 yards out to over 300 yards. You can calculate the same for larger game and slower bullets. The Point Blank software is great for this as you can set your maximum deviation from line of sight and it will tell you what your range is and how high it should impact at each distance. This eliminates accurate ranging and fiddling with the scope when a target presents itself. Just point and shoot.


Second - and most important - What is your maximum lethal range? What I am asking here is how long a shot can you take from a field hunting position such as sitting and be sure of the bullet hitting where you want it to hit? You need not only to know what the bullet is doing theoretically on the computer but get out and test your load/weapon/optics system in real world conditions. The test I use with new hunters and for new guns and loads myself involves setting either 6" shoot-n-c targets or gallon milk jugs at various unmeasured distance from 50 to 350 yards.(max distance where I shoot.)

You get one shot at each target starting close to far. When you miss. You know your limit for making a clean kill in the real world. This distance can increase as you gain experience in ranging targets and reading the wind conditions and improve your ability to hold a group from a field position. It is not enough to know that your gun will shoot 1/2 moa groups from a bench at 600 yards. You have to be able to do that in the field too.

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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:

I struggled with confirming published MOA adjustments until I learned to "shoot the corners"...

It will help your confidence tremendously.....

Are you talking about running the windage and elevation adjustments on the scope to shoot a square on your target? I agree this will let you know that your 1/4 MOA clicks are really 1/4 MOA clicks.

You can do this at short ranges and see the results too if you have a lot of adjusment in your scope. If you have a load that it printing 1" groups at 100 yards, the MOA gold standard of a good load, set the point of aim to the point of impact (cross hairs and bullet holes in same place) and shoot a three shot group in the middle of a target. Then crank the elevation up 12 clicks (3 moa) and put on 12 clicks right windage and shoot another three shot group while aiming at the center of the target again. It should print three inches up and three inches to the right of where you are aiming. Now take 24 clicks down and shoot another three shots aiming at the center again. 24 clicks left, three more shots , 24 clicks up three more shots, 12 clicks right and 12 clicks down three more shots. When you get done you should have a six inch square with three bullet holes on each corner and six bullet holes in the center. If you do not.... you may have a bad scope and are guessing what the clicks should be.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

PointBlank v2.0 generates a MOA table now. I had tons of requests for this feature.

MOA is a measurement of ANGLE. Concider standing in the center of a circle. To your left is 90 degrees, behind you is 180 degrees etc etc. Minute of Angle is 1/60th of a single degree and just so happens to be very close to 1" at 100 yards, close enough to not worry about.

So 1 MOA = 1" at 100 yards. Where this gets interesting, and the need for a MOA chart, is when you want to change your Zero from one range to another. This is where an elevation change has to happen but how much of a change? This is determed by the MOA chart.

In PointBlank the MOA table is in terms of pure MOA angles. In other words I'm not calculating the number of clicks to change the moa due to the amount of angle the users scope moves per "click".

If a scope has 1/4 MOA scope adjustments, 1 MOA = 4 clicks. For a scope with 1/2 MOA scope adjustments, 1 MOA = 2 clicks.

So, lets say the PointBlank v2.0 MOA table shows you need 1.5 MOA of adjustment to change your zero from one angle to another. And that your scope has 1/4 MOA adjustments. That means you would need 1.5 / (1/4) = 6 clicks of adjustment.

Maybe I need to get the scope MOA adjustment and update the table into pure "click" adjustments.


-DallanC
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

If you add the field that allows number of clicks per MOA by the user it would be a simple multiplication of the clicks per MOA on the scope * the MOA calculated by Point Blank.

This would give the Come Up Clicks for your load.

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DallanC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

The problem with that is people that dont have scopes, the field would default to 0 or some other invalid number and cause problems.


-DallanC
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

Set the default to 1 and you will get moa as clicks....

On my M1 that is the setting for iron sights. My WOA AR 15 has 1/4 moa iron sights. Those with buckhorn or non graduated peeps would not find the MOA feature useful at all any way. They would look for inches of drop and SWAG it from there. ie a 10 inch drop on a deer cartridge means you need to hold on his back etc.

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jb22-250
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

Dallanc, How do you get to use Pointblank v2.0 ? Where do find it at?

Thanks to all of you who helped answer my question. I appreciate it so much. JASON
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

jb22-250 wrote:
Dallanc, How do you get to use Pointblank v2.0 ? Where do find it at?

Thanks to all of you who helped answer my question. I appreciate it so much. JASON

Its still in development at the moment. Its nearing completion though. I have a few more things to do within the program itself, write the help files and then I need to do a couple things on the website to facilitate the patching / downloading statistics.


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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: How to make a click chart?? MOA??? Reply with quote

Dawgdad wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:

I struggled with confirming published MOA adjustments until I learned to "shoot the corners"...

It will help your confidence tremendously.....

Are you talking about running the windage and elevation adjustments on the scope to shoot a square on your target? I agree this will let you know that your 1/4 MOA clicks are really 1/4 MOA clicks.

You can do this at short ranges and see the results too if you have a lot of adjusment in your scope. If you have a load that it printing 1" groups at 100 yards, the MOA gold standard of a good load, set the point of aim to the point of impact (cross hairs and bullet holes in same place) and shoot a three shot group in the middle of a target. Then crank the elevation up 12 clicks (3 moa) and put on 12 clicks right windage and shoot another three shot group while aiming at the center of the target again. It should print three inches up and three inches to the right of where you are aiming. Now take 24 clicks down and shoot another three shots aiming at the center again. 24 clicks left, three more shots , 24 clicks up three more shots, 12 clicks right and 12 clicks down three more shots. When you get done you should have a six inch square with three bullet holes on each corner and six bullet holes in the center. If you do not.... you may have a bad scope and are guessing what the clicks should be.

Exactly what I was talking about...

Thanks for taking the time to explain it so well...

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