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Rifles: cartridge and scope trends?
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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1895ss
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

skb2706 wrote:
We hunt deer and antelope on farm fields that are either cut wheat stubble or winter wheat. If the animal of choiice happens to be some where near the center of a section of ground you can easily be faced with a 400 yd. shot. These are animals that have no reason or desire to move unless chased (we opt not to chase them). Getting closer would be possible if you were six inches tall and dressed in brown. It can be extremely difficult to even get to within that 400 yds. afterall you can see in a direct line for five miles.

To make a blanket statement that shooting over 400 yd. is either not sporting, not hunting or unexceptable would demonstrate a total lack of knowledge of that part of the world or hunting in general.

I would have to agree with you. Where I go Deer hunting here it's about the same in most places but there are areas where you can't see more then 50 yards as well. Where I go Elk hunting you can't see more than 100 yards at most. But on average I would bet that most deer shot around here are shot between 100 and 200 yards, even in the open.

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sniper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
Absolutely agree with the trend to fixed power scopes. I have a 3 X 9 and use the 4X or 5X and rarely us any lower or higher. My next scope will be a fixed power...

Have to agree with Bushy. My experience parrallels his'n.

I could no longer shoot my .270, due to increased recoil sensitivity. I now shoot a 257 Roberts, and find it sufficient. I would like a 6.5X55mm Swede.

But, I have this neighbor, and he uses his old Marlin 30-30 to take deer and antelope...he has since his mid 20's. He wants to shoot elk, he gets his .45cal muzzleloader,(BIG 6X6 this year) and he took a beautiful tom turkey this fall with his 12 gauge.

The old standards aren't very exciting, but they do the job...year after year after year... yes, they do. Very Happy
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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

HHMM interesting , nice to see the old standards are doing well , I never bought into the hype of the newest gee whizz flashbang magnums when they come out in all their glory , to make everything else obsolete in a season or two ..

long Range hunting , I've been round and round with people on this one .. If you can do it , thats great , but there's too many werdsmiths out there touting 400+ yard shots , and touting the newest flash bang gee whizzer , and making everyone think it's an easy thing to do , when it aint ..

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skb2706
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

If you grew up learning to shoot 400 plus yds. its just like learning to shoot 50 yds. With practice it can be done with great efficiency. My son who is just now 14 is very effective at 300 yds. and if I talked him thru it I am very confident he would connect beyond that. He probably practices at long range much more often than even most of the adult shooters here.

No whiz bang magnum involved....we shoot cartridges are nearly as old as me.
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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

Couldnt agree more skb , however , you threw a werd in there , that isnt done very much by most people , at any range ...

PRACTICE ..

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bcimino
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

I agree with you skb. I have been shooting whitetails from 400 to 600 yards for the past 20 years. I'll add that I have never wounded or lost a deer. I do use a 7mag and a 6-24 bausch & lomb so I can see what is between me and the deer. My son has been going with me since he was 3 (now 18) and I taught him how to shoot long range also. 12-15 was the last Saturday of our season and my son passed up two nice 8 points. Both were 400 yard shots but he was unable to get a clear shot so he passed them up in hopes they will be bigger next year. Pratice is the key and knowing where you rifle shoots at what distances.
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skb2706
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

My son and I both practice alot during the off season from big game hunting. We use a variety of rifles, rests and ranging techniques. I also quit experimenting so much with ammo, basically found 'the' load for each and practiced around that load. My varmint rifles get the experimenting.
Best thing that ever happened to shooting a rifle beyond 300 yds......shooting sticks.
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

I'm pleased to hear there are those that practice regularly for those long shots. As I mentioned, my criticism is of those that don't have either the proper equipment or skill to make connections in the 400+ yard range. It is rare indeed to find riflemen that have both, especially at 600 yards.

My skepticism is born of shooting 600 and 1,000 yard benchrest for several years. Here, the use of superbly accurized rifles, carefully crafted ammo, superior optics (Nightforce, US Optics for example) and precise distances off of stable benches then we produce winners capable of occasional 4" groups at 600 yds, however, often groups would easily double or triple that figure under the changing conditions of light, wind, temperature and mirage. If we arbitrarily set the kill zone on a mulie or whitetail as an 8 to 10" zone and if we add to the formula standard sporting rifles and optics used from field positions or stable rests, then 600yd kills are not only of extreme difficulty, but, absolutely spectacular. I am tempted to say "rare". Misjudging the distance by a mere 50yds would skew the trajectory considerably. Misjudging wind by only a few mph could result in a miss or, worse, a wounded animal.

So, I confess, I haven't the skill to do so with the hunting rifles I own. I would be most reluctant to attempt a 600yd shot even with one of my match grade bench rifles. I bow to those that can do so without fail or increased chances of causing needless suffering to the game we pursue.
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Coyote_Hunter_
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

My last few purchases have included a.257 Roberts, .30-30, .308 Win, .30-06, .375 Win, .45-70 and a .300 Win Mag. All were used except the .300WM.

Nothing wrong with the newer stuff (WSSM, WSM, RSAUM, RUM, etc.), IMHO, but not much attraction for them, either.

Two new cartridges that I DO want include the .375 Ruger and .308 Marlin. Have wanted a .307 Win for many years and the .308 Marlin is close enough. The .375 Ruger also fills a long want, H&H performance in a standard-weight rifle. Had the opportunity to shoot an Alaskan a while back, unscoped, and like it a lot.

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skb2706
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

Coyote_Hunter_ wrote:
My last few purchases have included a.257 Roberts, .30-30, .308 Win, .30-06, .375 Win, .45-70 and a .300 Win Mag. All were used except the .300WM.

Nothing wrong with the newer stuff (WSSM, WSM, RSAUM, RUM, etc.), IMHO, but not much attraction for them, either.

Two new cartridges that I DO want include the .375 Ruger and .308 Marlin. Have wanted a .307 Win for many years and the .308 Marlin is close enough. The .375 Ruger also fills a long want, H&H performance in a standard-weight rifle. Had the opportunity to shoot an Alaskan a while back, unscoped, and like it a lot.

CH - Can you get brass and loading data for a .308 Marlin. Can you make up brass from something else.
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mntmoney85
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

To the fact that 400yrd shots at deer are very common in some parts. If you grow up shooting this distances in the field at woodchucks and other targets. You are capable of making a humane kill on a deer. Given fact that the common hunter cant hit a 9 inch plate at 200. These guys that they are calling common hunters live in a city and only go to range to shoot and cant judge distances. I would hardly call these guys common hunters. The common hunters I know can shoot better than me hitting a 5 inch group at 500yrds on a bad day 7inchs
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

I too can shoot into the "kill zone" of a dear at 400 yards. In the field there are a number of things that can throw a shot off by 6 or more inches. Wind is the worst. Even if you shoot 1/2 moa like I do a gentle wind half way to a 400 yard shot can make you miss the vitals of a deer so I limit my shots to 200 yards. It doesn't matter when the wind throws a 400 yard bullet 3 inches of center in a target but in a game animal it could mean a lost animal or at the very least a long day of tracking to find a wounded animal that died hours before I found it. I like venison. I like it too much to let a bad shot ruin the taste of the meat.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

Most of the shooters I know that just have to try the latest and greatest have gravitated back to the old tried and true cartridges. In many cases it's recoil that does it. In other cases it is just too hard to make some of them shoot as well as a "standard" cartridge.

Don't get me wrong...I love to see the new cartridges come out if for no other reason than they are interesting and show that the industry is relatively healthy. On the other hand I am quite happy with a selection that includes the old standbys like .223s, 22/250s, .257 Roberts .280s, 30-06s, 45-70s and others along the same line. If a person doesn't mind the additional expense and etc. of the new cartridges, then more power to them and I certainly wish them well. I just don't think they are necessarily gaining anything of substance over existing cartridges.

As to the scope question; for most of my medium to large game calibers I am slowly transitioning back to good old fixed power scopes. I'm like Bushmaster...I find that I just set the power and don't touch it again anyway!

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Coyote_Hunter_
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

skb2706 wrote:

CH - Can you get brass and loading data for a .308 Marlin. Can you make up brass from something else.

The only source I know of for .308 Marlin brass is factory ammo. But they're making plenty of that.

Worst case, one could ream a .308 Marlin out to a .307 Win.

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Rifles: cartridge and scope trends? Reply with quote

Shame on all of you who are using brass to hold your components together and double shame if there is any glass in your optics.
And if anyone here is using that modern smokesless powder I have some news for you "IT WON'T CATCH ON". So stick to the tried and true 'standards'.
Enough of that , where is my Long Bow?
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