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45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

yip mate VERY aware of that.
just had a measure up of my crude smelly homebrewed BP. using my LEE spoons I can get 4cc of sugar into a remington case to base of where projectile sits....that same 4cc spoon holds 37grns on home brew......definately wont be overloaded no matter how hard I tamp it in with dowl before seating projectile hard up to powder.maybe able to fit 40grns-45 grns tops...what say you wise chaps...will it be a go or will it be a slug stuck in barrel type senario???

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

If it is mixed thoroughly and the granules are close to the right size you will get a low pressure load. If the granules are too small it should be hotter. If the powder is not well blended or the granules are too big you will have a slower lower pressure burn. Worst case you will have a bullet stuck in the barrel.
The mistake made most often is not getting the charcoal powdered fine enough and a lack of thoroughly mixing the three components so each granule is the correct mixture. Both of these make the powder burn like a flare instead of like an explosive.

You have a screw jag right?

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
also along similar lines

if a fella took a primed case (straight walled) and inserted it in a break open rifle or shotgun,closed action on case....could it/would it be feasble to then "muzzle load" it...in effect making a cap lock that was easy to clean and very easy to unload if not used or had malfunction.....
yes Ive got too much time on my hands and the BP bug.

I guess I fail to understand the point of this exercise...

Why wouldn't you just load the round with your black powder and fire it? Why bother tryin' to ram a bullet down the barrel and hope it seats properly?

I think you're asking for trouble, and I'm not sure about you, but I get myself in enough trouble without lookin' for it...

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

hunterjoe21......I have made BP and it looks fine and weighs what it should BUT that weight is a bit over half what it should be for volume so I wont be able to/maynot be able to get ENOUGH in a case to get decent velocity...eg the old load was 70 grains of BP behind a 405grn projectile thus .45/70/405 I dont believe I could physically FIT more than say 45 grains in the case....so if that 45grains isnt going to give me enough oooomph to push projectile out end of barrel with semi usefull velocity...Ive just made a batch of smelly black stuff good for stuff all.
I was thinking the bullet wont even be near the brass case and if I did it with shotgun (just for grins n giggles ) I thought to cut plastic off case completely.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Are you casting your own bullets?

I'm no expert, but I've played around with modern front-stuffers a little bit. Your bullet will need to be undersized and/or soft enough so you can even get it to start from the muzzle, let alone having some assurance that it is seated properly over your powder charge.

I believe that even when the Minie ball was being used, it was slightly under bore size to assist with loading.

It seems like your taking a huge step backwards to me...

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

yeah Mate I hear you....we tapped a cast slug through bore to check its dimentions before we started project so I know if one gets stuck its no biggy to remove it....you have convinced me that was a dumb idea so will throw that one away...on a brighter note the stuff burns real good!!!!
my first brew with pee for liquid and willow charcoal burns slower and longer,the batch I brewed today with Totara charcoal (NZ Native very fast burning)and warm water goes off with a whoosh very quickly so I might just be onto something...somehow..somewhere.

yes the projectiles are cast,not by me though,the guy who does them knows his stuff so more than happy to buy his as needed.395grn hollow base and 415grn flat based....and yip I had to tootoo and hollow point a few.
oh the joys of new toys

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Elvis,
Aren't you seating the bullet in the case before loading the cartridge in the gun?
I suppose if you loaded the cartridge full of powder and then set a wad on top to compress it you could muzzle load a bullet being sure to seat it tight against the wad... but that is the hard way to do it.
Seat the bullet to compress your powder charge and then load the complete cartridge.

on the powder problems:
did you use a ball mill to combine the ingredients?
did you crush the charcoal to dust or just fine grains?

If it weighs less per volume than it should about the only thing that can cause that is charcoal not ground to dust. The grains of charcoal have too much air space that doesn't get mixed with the oxidizer (saltpetre). Try using a ball mill to powder your charcoal alone before blending it all together. You won't need to add any liquid to the charcoal just when you blend the rest together.
Using alcohol rather than water will make it dry out faster after mixing too.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

I dont have a ball mill,I ground the charcoal to dust with a 3lb sledgehammer head in a meatdish/oven dish..took a couple of hours to do about a pound.
the weight is as expected because its not compessed like the factories do.
the liquid is used to dissolve the salt petre and the other two ingredients added to this slurry then all are mixed togeter to form a paste..as per what all the instructions on how to do it say.
Ive listened to reason and will forget all about trying to cheat and use as a muzzle loader..we will see how what we have got works and be happy.... if the bug really bites I might just have to save up and buy a cap lock....unfortunately we cant just pop down to bass pro and hand over $400 to get one... they come up from time to time 2nd hand but you never really know what you are going to get.....
one of the chaps over here who wrote thread that got me thinking about it in first place using cap gun caps from the $2 shop to set his one alight..... far far cheaper than commercial caps and they work just as good...a man after my own heart.

as for speed of drying,I was amazed how fast it did dry out today,3hours tops in the sunlight and she is dry as a wooden tit.
when my insert is finnally finished I will be able to test some of this stuff out.

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Elvis,,,, Don't know if you've been told that the Hornady hulls are 60- thousands shorter that the other brands ,,,,,,good to know if you crimp the bullet
Hornady brass is 2.040 inches long , has to do with the newer bullets used in the marlins lever guns
Starline brass is 2.104 inches long

The only powder I weighed was the Triple 777 - 65gr in a black powder measure weighed out on the scales at 45.5gr

Here are a few of my reloads that I use in an old Springfield trapdoor 32-inch barrel . Most velocities are between 1050 and 1380 FPS

Blackhorn 209 - 38gr. 405gr cast bullet 1380 FPS
Blackhorn 209 - 30gr. 405gr cast bullet 1200 FPS
Blackhorn 209 - 28gr 500gr cast bullet 1050 FPS

Hodgdon triple 777 - 65gr 405gr cast bullet
Hodgdon triple 777 - 55gr 500gr cast bullet 1150 FPS
Hodgdon triple 777 - 65gr 300gr win jacketed bullet

Hodgdon Pyrodex FFF - 405gr win. jacketed bullet 50gr
Hodgdon triple 777 - 405gr win jacketed bullet 45.5gr

Don't worry about the speed , when a 405gr slug at 1100FPS can penetrate 6 to 8 inches in an oak log at a 100-200yds . The 1884 US-Army manual for the 45-70 trapdoor , testing used northern white oak for their test as 1-inch of white oak was equal to 1-inch of human flesh .
The old girl I have had a 1200yd leaf sight , but I've gone to a Lyman peep sight with these old eyes. She doesn't shoot min. of angle groups but she's a pleasure to hold and shoot. Cheers

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

thanks for that Pete...but now Im confused...are you saying black powder measure of grains is different to the grains we now use????
if thats correct my Totara based powder must be close to 777 in density...

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

I thought black powder was measured in volume not weight.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Here's a bit of a blurb on measuring black powder...

blog.davide-pedersoli....r-charges/

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
I thought black powder was measured in volume not weight.

That's correct Jim , black powder is measured in volume
,,,,,I use this set-up on my measuring . 24-inch drop-tube with a lee powder measure.




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pete4d
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
Here's a bit of a blurb on measuring black powder...

blog.davide-pedersoli....r-charges/

I like your link ,,, all my searches over the years never turned that article up,,,,
Cheers

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: 45/70 Low Velocity load - anyone have a good one? Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
thanks for that Pete...but now Im confused...are you saying black powder measure of grains is different to the grains we now use????
if thats correct my Totara based powder must be close to 777 in density...

Elvis,,, some of my early black powder loading info came from Mr. Turner Kirkland (Dixie Gun Works) back in the '60's , He used a cut off cart, case as a measure for the black powder , fff , Just be sure you have no dead space ( use a wad or as I use to do on the cheap cut 1/2-inch strips of the heavier shop towels , roll them as a filler . Your will tighten up your group using a wad ( with cast bullets ) hope some of these hints help Cheers

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