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recoil help
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms

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twocan
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Joined: Oct 03, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: recoil help Reply with quote

I bought a new savage 116 bolt action in 300 wsm. I have a problem with the top bullet in the magazine sliding forward and smashing the nose on soft point bullets and it will brake ballistic tips off as well. "From recoil" Is this very common? I sent the gun back because they told me is sould not be doing that. Then they sent it back to me and said I will not be able to find a factory gun with out that problem in 300wsm. They told me it was a 300wsm bullet characteristic. And also they told me it does not affect accuracy at all. what do you think?
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popgun
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Joined: Jan 26, 2005
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Location: Mitchell, GA, U.S.A. (2007 pop. 191)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

The short fat cartirdges can cause a feeding problem if the alignment is off from the magazine to the chanber. Take it to a gunsmith and have him check it. Deformed bullets will effect long range accuracy more than short range but it shouldn't be happening in the first place. Refund comes to mind if the factory said it was a problem then flip-floped and said it was normal, and it is not normal. I would recomend another call to the factory and talk to management.
Bullet tip deformation in the magazine is a normal occurance in most rifles that are under heavy recoil.

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1895ss
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

I agree with popgun. Just another reason I don't see the need for the WSM's.

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GroovyJack
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Joined: May 21, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Well short fats have never fed "good" ... Shouldnt have a crushed nose in a 300 though .. Doesnt have enuff recoil IMO ..

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george20042007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Never heard of this problem before. I'm wondering if the spring in the magazine is weak. Something in the magazine seems to be out of wack, (no pun intended). Give it a hard look.
Keep it coming...
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SwampFox
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Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Aaaa Ha.... thank you, you just solved a 5 month problem.

When I was in Africa in April I had a problem that has been bugging me ever since. I shot 6 rounds for sight in with my 300 WSM after arrival, went to the field, on the second stalk, I unbolted the gun and pulled a bullet. Never had the problem before.

Now I know why. On the last sight in round I loaded the magazine with 3 rounds, fired one and dumped the rest, out of the magazine into my hand. The Montana has a very strong magazine spring, the cases do not move under recoil. The bullets must have pulled.

My reloads were my normal 1/2 neck sized brass with 180 gr BT Game Kings, set .003 off the lands. The Game king has a short bearing surface. Combine the bearing surface with a long set out and there you are.

I had never fired the gun from a stacked magazine before.

I would suggest that anyone with reloads set a BT further down in the neck, neck size to near full length and fire a couple of rounds with rounds left in the magazine, them measure the OAL of the rounds from the magazine, before you go to the field.
Ed

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rrogacki
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Joined: Apr 22, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Swampfox,
Excuse my ignorance, but are you saying that the problem was caused by you reloading the rounds with the bullet not seated deep enough ??

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SwampFox
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

The problem was a combination of elements. However, the seating depth was a primary factor as I will explain. I checked the ammo box last night. I had put it up as it was, upon my return, untill I figured out what had happened.

Sure enough, my cartridge OAL setting was 3.057 I found one round that was 3.067 That would be .007 into the lands with a .003 off set at 3.057. More importantly, when I figured the bullet seating depth VS the boattail length of .250, I only had .068 of bearing surface in the case at 3.057 When the bullet moved out the bearing surface at 3.067 was .061, hardly enough bullet pull resistance or friction to produce a stable OAL, upon firing the 300 WSM with a 180 at 3,000 fps. I would think that the 300 WSM should probably have a bullet seating depth that would produce a .200 or a .250 bearing surface in the case neck.

So now I will need to do some reserch and experiments to figure a seating depth that will eliminate the bullet movement.

Thanks again for the hint which has led to my solving the mystery. Oh, this is not necessarily a problem with most guns, however, the Montana action has a longer magazine. The longer magazine allows for a longer OAL.
Ed

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DallanC
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Joined: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 3185
Location: Utah

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

SwampFox wrote:
So now I will need to do some reserch and experiments to figure a seating depth that will eliminate the bullet movement.

Have you concidered Crimping them?


-DallanC
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SwampFox
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Location: Destin, Florida

PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Hey Dallan,
Yes, all of the various options have crossed my mind since yesterday. The first thing I will do is see if setting the depth deeper, in incriments effects accuracy, using the load in the cartridges now and stop the depth at "X" point. If that does not work, I might go to the original OAL and apply nail polish to the bullet bearing surface and try again. Lacquer works for the govt, so perhaps... Then if I have no joy, it will be a cannelure tool and a crimp or change to a 180 game bullet with a cannalure on it already and start again. I may just chuck the whole business and go to the Hornady 165 SST. I have a great load for the 168 HPBT Match bullet already and understand the 165 Hornady SST is deadly on game up to Elk size. With a heavy jacket, the 165 is supposed to shoot pretty much like the 168 using the same loads.

We will see, wife is going off this weekend to see her folks and I can play.
Ed

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sniper
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Location: Utah

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: recoil help Reply with quote

Bullet pulling is a problem of neck tension combined with recoil. That's why so many of the classic African and military cartridges had their bullets staked in place, and why handgun cartridges are crimped. Those bullets didn't move, which is important with dangerous animals.

For hunting, especially for dangerous species, I have always believed that the gain in feeding reliability and bullet retention provided by minimum full length sizing is more valuable than any theoretical gain provided by sizing ~ 27- 33% of the neck, so the body will fit the chamber. Better to full length size your cartridge for minimum headspace in your rifle, minus a smidge, to insure reliable fit and feeding, seat the bullet at least a caliber's width into the case neck, and that will probably make your problem go away, promoting confidence in your rifle. That counts for a lot!

Once you have your bullet secure, fiddle with seating depth to squeeze all the accuracy you can out of the load.
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