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meat damage....load Vs shot placement.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:30 am    Post subject: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

I know slimjim will be all over this one like mould on cheese. Very Happy Very Happy
ok so a bit of background needed.
Ive used the mighty .270 winchester for close on 30 years and love it to bits call it a poohseventy and I will just grin Laughing
here in N.Z. it got bad reputation for damaging too much meat back in the days when guys where carrying animals out whole for sale to overseas markets...if you look closely at the loads used back then one of the most common loads was a hot 110grn as issued to NZFS (deer cullers) projectiles of 130 grn were of soft construction and the 150s were better but all still soft...so they would open up and kill things...they did what they were supposed to do.
the .243 also did nasty things to meat BUT it came in sexy new short rifles like sako forrester which were super accurate Vs the run of the mill accuracy guys were used to..3-4" was ok for shoulder shots
with the new lighter more accurate rifles guys started to regulary head/neck shoot the sako vixen in .222 was great for this too.
back to meat damage
Ive never complained about loosing a bit of meat...if Im a long way from wagon Im more than happy to plaster shoulders 2 or even 3 times if animal doesnt fall over straight away,the stew/mince meat lost is just collateral damage.
recently Ive been given some 140grn hornady interlocts they shoot straight (as all hornady has in this rifle) Ive shot a big red hind a couple of weeks back and due to distance for carry didnt even look at shoulders the lungs were messed up so all good. today I shot another big hind at 250 yards the perfect broadside crease shot (slipped in TIGHT behind shoulders) didnt hit any bone at all and I lost grand total of Scratch ...........1/2 teaspoon of meat due to lead fragments Very Happy Very Happy
now if that shot placement was 4" further forwards I know I would have had messy off side probably not worth taking...6" forward and again next to no meat loss and instant death to animal.
I could use solid copper jobbies (infact I have a couple of hundy of them) but struggle to see reason to do so when the old school types just work so darn well.
over the years Ive had some pretty poor shot placement and back in the naasty 90s shot more than one deer fair up the jacksee as they were few and far between and you took what you could get. Ive never lost more than 1/4 of an animal and hind quarters are pretty hard to completely ruin.
the long range guys over here typically use the likes of an AMax ELDM etc etc as they NEED the pill to fragment to give them a little leeway for shot placement when ranges are getting out there...a near miss of vitals will still put projectile fragments into vital bits and animal will expire quickly or at worst cripple it enough to allow follow up shots to do the job.
I love the solid copper jobbies in the .223 as it gives it enough penertration with 50grn pills to happily shoot big animals WITH CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT.
over here fallow deer are often head/neck shot with a very soft/varmit type projectile with theory being a not perfect shot will close to decapitate animal whereas same shot with stout projectile will allow animal to escape wounded..... years back a mate shot hind through neck with 150grn .30-06 it didnt drop so I plastered it with 130grn .270 it still didnt drop but staggered for another 20-30 seconds before flopping over,our shots has struck 1" apart from oposing sides and both missed neck bones by 1" has we been using very soft projectile she wouldve been night night nursey for deer.
Scratch Scratch when I got this latest deer home and found 1/2 teaspoonful of damage I just had to share as there is so much Mad crap Mad being sprouted around at the moment about the evils of lead its not funny. oh incase you interested I left bones from head to tail behind and some of the hide my pack weighed 50kgs neat so she wasnt a small animal.
Elvis

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Mold on cheese?!?

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis, there are numerous lead-core bullets that have earned excellent reputation. However, I have witnessed soft lead-core bullets destroy meat or allow an animal run off wounded. I'm glad your lead-core bullets are working well with limited meat loss. The improved construction of today's bullets have allowed some lighter bullets to do the work of what heavy for caliber lead-cores used to be required for.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Mold on cheese?!?

couldnt think of another way of saying it....
right up your alley????
something you are bound to reply to????
your field of expertise???
flies on a jam sammy???
wasps on a honey pot???
Scratch Scratch Very Happy

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

I hear what you are saying and its the same as which cartridge is ethically the bare minimum required to humainly do the job...which comes back to bullet placement as much as construction... eg Im 100% positive. deer sniper or yourself or any number of the guys on here who can shoot tiny wee groups could head shoot a deer sitting chewing its cud at 200 yards and cleanly kill it with near decapitation like effectiveness with an accurate rifle in say for arguments sake .22-250 using v max projectiles all day every day...guys have been doing it for years on fallow.
my deer loads are now 50 grn ttsx in the .223 yet Ive cleanly taken them with other projectiles....if all I had were my 50 grn zmax wallaby loads it would be head/neck or broadside in the crease or not at all..... given fmj loads the crease would be aim point for me.if deer was on the move ,it was windy or I otherwise couldnt be sure of shot placement it would be a case of letting animal walk away.
improoved construction is a double edged sword....... the projectile manufactures have been forced to make things harder to cope with magnum velocities and to some extent faster twist rates...fire that projectile made for 300 magnum in your .308 and it might as well be a fmj
flip that over and fire the likes of speer 170 grn fp made for 30/30 velocities in the 300 magnum and it will be a shallow blowup of varmint type preformance...good for bunnies or head/neck shots only.

when range is getting long/velocity getting low that same hard projectile is again down to .308 preformance levels and that is where the softer ones come into thier own..... swings and roundabouts,its hard to have your cake and eat it too..... the good old reliable Nosler partition is pretty darn close I sure do wish they would bring out a plastic tipped .277 pill of 160-170 grns man that would make the old poohseventy really shine even more.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

“Flies on a jam sammy” made me laugh

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
..... the good old reliable Nosler partition is pretty darn close.

In my terminal performance tests with the Nosler Partition showed the front core fragmented while the back core was retained for better penetration. Kind of the best of both worlds but it did not hold enough weight penetrate like the copper bullets.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
sure do wish they would bring out a plastic tipped .277 pill of 160-170 grns man that would make the old poohseventy really shine even more.

Elvis, a tip added to a 160+ bullet for the .270 would likely make it too long to stabilize. Look at the AccuBond, they only make a 140gr lead-core with a tip. If you want to step your game in your "old poohseventy", try the new 145 ELD-X from Hornady. That is what I am doing now. I've measured the BC at 0.576 (higher than advertised) and, with your tip on Superformance powder, it looks like I can get velocities as high as my 130 bullets. I believe this will be a game changer.

BTW, I stop worrying about the cost of the bullet and don't mind buying high-end well constructed bullets if they give me the terminal performance I need. When I factor in all the cost to hunt (licenses, feed, equipment, travel hotels, food, etc.), the cost of the bullet isn't as large as a flea on a jam Sammy.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

hehehehehehehe ....you dont get much softer or more fragmental than the ELD-X OR M which are pretty much just AMax
I can use 160 and or 170 grn round nose now and the 150s stabalise fine so maybe just rejic and tip the 150 then...they pretty darn good as they are and do do wwhat they were made for...tempted to try the 160grn partition just for grins n giggles but am too cheap to fire them at paper at over a $ a pill. still got 3 x150s left over from 15 sample pack bought 18mths ago,they must be getting bored sitting 2nd in the magazine by now.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
you dont get much softer or more fragmental than the ELD-X OR M which are pretty much just AMax

ELD-X has expanded nicely for me in testing (yet to use on game). But you can get much, much softer. The AccuBond Long Range is so soft I can't pull the bullets (they just shrink down to the collet's size) and it fragments more than any bullet I have test. The .277 ABLR shrinks to the size of a 55 grain .223 projectile. Nosler did an injustice calling the ABLR an AccuBond.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

yip I hear you...guys are using the amax/eldm-x on game with good results particularly when they go heavy for calibre so velocity isnt so quick... been very tempted to try something around 200grns in .308 but the 180 win factory does the job nicely and I m back using the poohseventy again.... Scratch that LRAB should be a great load at distance or low speed for same reasons given above...soft will still give some expansion at low velocity.
Very Happy still comes down to putting that pill in the desired location. Very Happy

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

hmmm long range possabilities abound



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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
that LRAB should be a great load at distance or low speed for same reasons given above...soft will still give some expansion at low velocity.

The AccuBond Long Range advertises a low speed expansion of 1300 fps, but that is only for the heavy .308 bullets. Energy determines expansion (not velocity) so the 150 grain .277 ABLR low speed expansion point occurs at 1500 fps. Plus when it fragments, it is so soft the fragments are but flakes of lead. Even at 450 yard, the .277 ABLR fragmented away leaving just a 55gr pill for penetration. Not the performance you need for a big game bullet. Plus the advertised BC of the .277 ABLR is inflated - their 0.625 is really 0.560. I would never use this bullet on elk or any game I wanted to keep the meat for. See, don't get me spun up on the ABLR. I still have a couple hundred siting on my bench that will never get used because I drank their Kool-Aid.

The 145 ELD-X is a harder bullet that will penetrate better and has a higher actual BC. IMO, a much better big game hunting bullet. I'm getting better accuracy with it, also. A good bullet for your situation above.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
still comes down to putting that pill in the desired location.

Agreed, with the amplification that I still have to have confidence in the bullet and how my rifle shoots it.

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Grant
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: meat damage....load Vs shot placement. Reply with quote

I've been using the 130gr Nosler Accubond in my 270 for several years. I have a rather hot load that the gun likes. I've taken four Elk, three Moose and several deer with that load. I only go heart and lung shots and have for decades. If I don't have a perfect broadside shot, I don't shoot. The only time I had any significant meat damage was my Whitetail two years ago when it nicked a branch, tumbled and actually went in sideways. That was a mess! Other then that, the animals all go down quick and all I loose are some ribs in the freezer and that's okay cause it's not my favorite anyway.

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