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Recoil Reduction For Load Development
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Thoughts here on using recoil reducing "devices" while in the load development stage...

I am working on loads for the 300 Win Mag. The last time I had it to the range, I started to notice the recoil after about 30 rounds and thought that I should have used something like Caldwell's Lead Sled. After some online research, I found several instances where folks have claimed that the use of such devices has resulted in broken stocks, scopes out of alignment or damaged, etc.

I would only use something like this for load development. Once I have a that part of the equation worked out, any practice, scope adjustments, final sighting adjustments would be with the rifle fired from the shoulder.

My, there is certainly a whole list of recommendations so I'll throw some in there.

1. I'm not sure why you only had 100 to 200 yard shots in Ohio. I live there and a 300 to 400 yard shot on my farm isn't that rare.

2. I had a Lead Sled for awhile but got rid of it because I found I didn't need it and I thought the possible broken stock scenario was realistic.

3. When I started shooting centerfires, I thought 308 Winchester recoil was pretty bad. I can now shoot 20 rounds of full power 460 Weatherby cartridges loaded with 500 grain bullets off the bench with no Lead Sled and no problem. It is possible to build up recoil tolerance. A martial arts class with some firm contact sparring would help (yea, really).

4. I fail to see why people buy the big guns and then immediately ask about reduced loads, cast bullet loads, etc. It's like castrating your prized breeding bull. A 7mm Remington Magnum would reach out just as far and kill just as well as a 300 Winchester Magnum with less recoil. Even lesser cartridges are sufficient for most game in North America.

5. Consider a muzzle brake (my 458 Lott, 378 Weatherby, 300 Winchester Magnum, etc. don't have them) if you need one or, the best of both worlds, a suppressor.

6. Your plan to do final scope adjustments from the shoulder is a bad one. You need to sight in from the bench then do all the off hand practice you like. Really, it will work. Furthermore, if your plan is to take 300 and 400 yard shots off hand from the shoulder, you won't do well unless you're a lot better than I am. For shots at that range, you'll need a very good rest; kind of like bench rest shooting.

7. I think reduced loads for practice is also a bad idea. With a particular bullet and powder, there will be an optimal powder weight for best accuracy and that will not come at the reduced load. In addition, if the gun is too uncomfortable to shoot for practice with the loads you intend to use for hunting, you shouldn't be using it/them.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The key to using a leadsled is to not use so much weight that there is no give!!!

If the gun is strapped in or held too tightly the energy will have no where to go and something is going to break.

When we use the sled I adjust the amount of weight for the cartridge we're shooting. I allow some recoil to push the sled into my shoulder and allow the muzzle to jump the same as it would if I were shooting from sandbags.

It’s a great tool but I do prefer my final sight in to be done on the bags. POI will usually change.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
Thoughts here on using recoil reducing "devices" while in the load development stage...

I am working on loads for the 300 Win Mag. The last time I had it to the range, I started to notice the recoil after about 30 rounds and thought that I should have used something like Caldwell's Lead Sled. After some online research, I found several instances where folks have claimed that the use of such devices has resulted in broken stocks, scopes out of alignment or damaged, etc.

I would only use something like this for load development. Once I have a that part of the equation worked out, any practice, scope adjustments, final sighting adjustments would be with the rifle fired from the shoulder.

My, there is certainly a whole list of recommendations so I'll throw some in there.

1. I'm not sure why you only had 100 to 200 yard shots in Ohio. I live there and a 300 to 400 yard shot on my farm isn't that rare.

2. I had a Lead Sled for awhile but got rid of it because I found I didn't need it and I thought the possible broken stock scenario was realistic.

3. When I started shooting centerfires, I thought 308 Winchester recoil was pretty bad. I can now shoot 20 rounds of full power 460 Weatherby cartridges loaded with 500 grain bullets off the bench with no Lead Sled and no problem. It is possible to build up recoil tolerance. A martial arts class with some firm contact sparring would help (yea, really).

4. I fail to see why people buy the big guns and then immediately ask about reduced loads, cast bullet loads, etc. It's like castrating your prized breeding bull. A 7mm Remington Magnum would reach out just as far and kill just as well as a 300 Winchester Magnum with less recoil. Even lesser cartridges are sufficient for most game in North America.

5. Consider a muzzle brake (my 458 Lott, 378 Weatherby, 300 Winchester Magnum, etc. don't have them) if you need one or, the best of both worlds, a suppressor.

6. Your plan to do final scope adjustments from the shoulder is a bad one. You need to sight in from the bench then do all the off hand practice you like. Really, it will work. Furthermore, if your plan is to take 300 and 400 yard shots off hand from the shoulder, you won't do well unless you're a lot better than I am. For shots at that range, you'll need a very good rest; kind of like bench rest shooting.

7. I think reduced loads for practice is also a bad idea. With a particular bullet and powder, there will be an optimal powder weight for best accuracy and that will not come at the reduced load. In addition, if the gun is too uncomfortable to shoot for practice with the loads you intend to use for hunting, you shouldn't be using it/them.

Maybe I should preface my comments on hunting in Ohio with "from my experience"...

In Ashtabula County, where I lived and hunted for years, once the shooting started on opening day the deer headed for the thickest, nastiest stuff they could find. They would hold in the creek bottoms that were chocked with multiflora rose until someone pushed them out or they got hungry. Stuff so thick that you could (if you had the nerve to go in there) literally walk past them at 10 feet and never know they were there. I've had many occasions where they jumped and ran once I went past. Other times I've walked nearly in arms reach, but found that as long as you don't make eye contact, they will stay there thinking you didn't see them. I've killed my fair share by walking past them and shooting them where they hide. Part of the problem with that particular part of the state is the sheer number of hunters in the woods trying to fill their freezer in a 1 week plus 2 day hunting season. Opening day is closed for the school kids, the Amish Orange Army is on the move, and the close proximity to Cleveland tends to lead to WAY too many people wandering around and most of them couldn't care less about property boundaries. It's all part of the reason I couldn't wait to leave once I had the chance.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

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Last edited by hunterjoe21 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Maybe I should reset this to zero...

My original question was regarding the use of recoil reducing devices for load development. Once I have a load that performs to my specs, any further use of this device would cease. It is merely an effort to reduce, as much as possible, human error in order to start off with the most accurate load I can.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
The key to using a leadsled is to not use so much weight that there is no give!!!

If the gun is strapped in or held too tightly the energy will have no where to go and something is going to break.

When we use the sled I adjust the amount of weight for the cartridge we're shooting. I allow some recoil to push the sled into my shoulder and allow the muzzle to jump the same as it would if I were shooting from sandbags.

It’s a great tool but I do prefer my final sight in to be done on the bags. POI will usually change.

Thank You

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

A 270 Winchester has worked as well as anything. I've also used a 300 Winchester Magnum, a 25-06, a 22-250 and a 300 Weatherby Magnum.



I used a 204 Ruger on the one above but that deer was only 252 yards away. I have broken the 300 yard mark with the 204 Ruger on crow, raccoon and coyote.

The flaw in the plan to use less weight on a Lead Sled so it can push into your shoulder a bit is that the Lead Sled will move on the bench and you'll have to reposition it. If the lead sled doesn't move at all, because of your shoulder or added weight, the result as far as broken stocks go is EXACTLY the same.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

tell you one thing for nothing..... light loads of trail boss powder might not be the best training tool, but they sure as heck are fun to use,and very very efficent to go with it.
eg my pet load is a 151grn cast with a HUGE hollow point (same as winchester powerpoint .22lr) std primer and 4.1 grns yes thats not a typo..4.1 grns of powder in a 7.62x39mm case
the projectiles are $15 per hundred so its costing me slightly more than .22lr to run but less than anything else by a country mile
today 3 shots all at 40-50 yards resulted in 3 hogget (between 1-2 year old) sheep suffering terminal headaches and the ladies sitting 20 yards behind me having cuppa teas hardly even heard the shots!!!!
I reckon shooting a nice light load like that is great for the confidence...and another great use is for finishing off game....no need for a great walloping load. just a mild phhhhiiit into top of neck or head.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
Also, "On My Farm" makes a huge difference...

What are you shooting them with at 300-400 yards??

Just curious.

A 270 Winchester has worked as well as anything. I've also used a 300 Winchester Magnum, a 25-06, a 22-250 and a 300 Weatherby Magnum.



I used a 204 Ruger on the one above but that deer was only 252 yards away. I have broken the 300 yard mark with the 204 Ruger on crow, raccoon and coyote.]


The flaw in the plan to use less weight on a Lead Sled so it can push into your shoulder a bit is that the Lead Sled will move on the bench and you'll have to reposition it. If the lead sled doesn't move at all, because of your shoulder or added weight, the result as far as broken stocks go is EXACTLY the same.

You're shooting deer in Ohio with a center fire rifle???

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Yea; nuisance permits.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The question originally asked in this thread was about the usage of a product and it's relationship to breaking things !!!
Not what's the best bench rest set up/technique for winning a match at the pro level.
I doubt anyone looking to compete in a competitive discipline would even consider the lead sled. As I stated earlier it's a tool. A tool for those of us who need something to help manage recoil. The reason we might need it is irrelevant and we don't need/want to be lectured to about it.

With everything in life there are pros and cons. You/I must evaluate the facts and make a decision based upon what's best for me not you.

I developed a load for my dad's 7mm Weatherby mag using the lead sled. The best load we got was pushing 1.5 moa. Better than dad ever did in the past with that gun. After sighting in off a traditional tripod and bag set up I quickly discovered the load shot closers to to 1 moa
The moral of the story..... without the sled we would have never found the guns best potential regardless of it's flaws.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

Grumulkin wrote:
Yea; nuisance permits.

I thought that might be what you were referring to, but in all reality is a whole different conversation.

That would be similar to asking me why I'm having trouble hitting a running rabbit at 25 yards with a slingshot since you can shoot pop cans all day at 50 yards with your .22.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

chambered221 wrote:
The question originally asked in this thread was about the usage of a product and it's relationship to breaking things !!!
Not what's the best bench rest set up/technique for winning a match at the pro level.
I doubt anyone looking to compete in a competitive discipline would even consider the lead sled. As I stated earlier it's a tool. A tool for those of us who need something to help manage recoil. The reason we might need it is irrelevant and we don't need/want to be lectured to about it.

With everything in life there are pros and cons. You/I must evaluate the facts and make a decision based upon what's best for me not you.

I developed a load for my dad's 7mm Weatherby mag using the lead sled. The best load we got was pushing 1.5 moa. Better than dad ever did in the past with that gun. After sighting in off a traditional tripod and bag set up I quickly discovered the load shot closers to to 1 moa
The moral of the story..... without the sled we would have never found the guns best potential regardless of it's flaws.

Chambered,

Which version of the Lead Sled do you have?

The newest one I've seen is the DFT, which weighs over 20 pounds. I'm thinking that I may not need to add any weight if I decide to go this route. It also comes in around $10/pound!!

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

The original model that was first introduced !!!

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: Recoil Reduction For Load Development Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
hunterjoe21 wrote:
My original intent was to work up a load using a Barnes 165 gr TTSX. They seem to be almost impossible to find though. No one around here stocks them (168 grain TSX's are everywhere), but I remember reading somewhere that the 165 TTSX/TSX was developed with the .300 Win Mag in mind.

The.300 Win Mag was SAMMI'd back when bullets didn't have longer ogives. The 165 TTSX fits the SAMMI COAL. The ogive on the 168 TTSX is longer like more modern bullets. Magazine length in some .300 WM are often longer to accommodate modern low-drag bullets. You might be able to fit the 168 TTSX in your action if your magazine is long enough. The 168 expands slightly better than the 165.

I grabbed a box each of the 168 gr TTSX and TSX recently. Using the TTSX and Hornady (Stoney Point) comparator, I found that the closest I could get to the lands based on the magazine length is a.160 "jump". Barnes recommends a jump of .050, so I pretty sure these aren't gonna work for me. I'm thinking that the 165's are probably a better fit. I didn't have a chance to measure the TSX's yet, but the results probably aren't too different.

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