HuntingNut » Forums » Hunting » Big Game Hunting » Marlin shooters?
HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: sandcrash
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 12582

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 68
BOT: 1
Total: 69
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Forums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: PointBlank Ballistics
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Home
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Forums
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Forums
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Home
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Forums
40: Your Account
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Forums
45: Forums
46: Forums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Home
50: Home
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Forums
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Forums
63: Forums
64: Forums
65: Forums
66: Photo Albums
67: Forums
68: Forums
  BOT:
01: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 305
 Pictures: 2358
  · Views: 372277
  · Votes: 1307
  · Comments: 85
 

Support our Advertisers

Marlin shooters?
Big Game Hunting topics that dont fit other categories
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Big Game Hunting

View previous topic :: View next topic  

What Winchester or Marlin levergun do you prefer to hunt with?
7-30 Waters or 7mm STE
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
.30-30 or .30-30AI
26%
 26%  [ 12 ]
.307Win
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
.357Mag or .44Mag
8%
 8%  [ 4 ]
.356Win or .375Win
8%
 8%  [ 4 ]
444 Marlin
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
.45-70 or 450 Marlin
46%
 46%  [ 21 ]
What's a levergun?
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 45

Author Message
fargus080
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Saint Louis

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Coyote_Hunter_ wrote:

The .45-70 has turned out to be a real joy to shoot. I've developed 18 or 19 different loads for it. For plinkers I load 300g hardcast over 13.5g HS-6 and get .22LR velocities with about half the recoil of a .30-30. My girls love these loads and so do I. My hunting loads use a 350g bonded core North Fork at 2183fps. Recoil with these is pretty stiff, not quite double a .30-06. Then I have my "Rhino Blaster" loads, a 460g hardcast at 1812fps. Recoil on these is even stiffer, about 48 foot-pounds when the scope is off. (Per Point Blank, of course!) I keep these around because you never know when a rhino will trot through your back yard. Besides, in water jug tests these loads penetrate 9 jugs - that's 2-3 more than anything else I've tested except Speer's 500g African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid. (The AGS Tungsten Solid costs over $5 each, and I split a box of 25 with 4 other guys. The one I shot into jugs went out the side of the 9th jug and buried itself in the earthen berm. Shocked )

Could you send me your Marlin 45-70 load data? I just got a Marlin 1895G in .45-70 and I am learing to reload because I like the caliber so much. Thanks! wtf

For the poster who asked about Ghost Ring sights, I got the XS sights and they were a breeze to install. Just make sure you have the right screw driver. No soldering involved for the 1895G. They sighted in great too.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
deedmonton
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Hi Coyote Hunter;

You can add my vote to the 45 70 group. Iv'e used it every year since you and I exchanged reload data on the defunked Marlin Talk site. Hope you are doing well. Iv'e been using the 350 Hornady FP under either R7 @ 50 grains or H4198 @ 49-50 grains. The accuracy isn't real great but good enough for hunting at 1.5 inches at 100 yards. I have experimented with IMR 3031 and experienced poor accuracy and a much lower velocity to the other two powders. I am considering returning to the 400-405 grains and 47 grains of H4198/R7.

Let me know what loads you like best. And thanx for the hard copies you sent me -- they really were helpful.

Deedmonton
Back to top
View user's profile
deedmonton
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Hi Coyote Hunter;

You can add my vote to the 45 70 group. Iv'e used it every year since you and I exchanged reload data on the defunked Marlin Talk site. Hope you are doing well. Iv'e been using the 350 Hornady FP under either R7 @ 50 grains or H4198 @ 49-50 grains. The accuracy isn't real great but good enough for hunting at 1.5 inches at 100 yards. I have experimented with IMR 3031 and experienced poor accuracy and a much lower velocity to the other two powders. I am considering returning to the 400-405 grains and 47 grains of H4198/R7.

Let me know what loads you like best. And thanx for the hard copies you sent me -- they really were helpful.

Deedmonton
Back to top
View user's profile
deedmonton
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Hi Coyote Hunter;

You can add my vote to the 45 70 group. Iv'e used it every year since you and I exchanged reload data on the defunked Marlin Talk site. Hope you are doing well. Iv'e been using the 350 Hornady FP under either R7 @ 50 grains or H4198 @ 49-50 grains. The accuracy isn't real great but good enough for hunting at 1.5 inches at 100 yards. I have experimented with IMR 3031 and experienced poor accuracy and a much lower velocity to the other two powders. I am considering returning to the 400-405 grains and 47 grains of H4198/R7.

Let me know what loads you like best. And thanx for the hard copies you sent me -- they really were helpful.

Deedmonton
Back to top
View user's profile
1895ss
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 2613
Location: Not Here...!!

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

I really enjoy taking my 45-70 to the range or hunting. It is a great caliber and the 1895ss (22 inch bbl) is a great rifle, one of my favorites in my gun cabinet.................
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Kodiak
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Jan 25, 2005
Posts: 21
Location: N.E. Missouri

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

I have a 45/70 ssGG. Got it this last spring. So far the best load tried thru it has been with the 350 gr. Northfork bullet over 54.0 gr. of H332 and a Fed. 210 match primer. With the WildWest front and rear sights, it has been grouping under 2" at 100 yards. It has a fairly stiff recoil with this load, so you may need/want to start at a lower powder weight and work up. This is a safe load in MY rifle. Good luck,
Back to top
View user's profile
yotebuster
Member
Member


Joined: Oct 16, 2005
Posts: 216
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Very Happy Mine, and 1895 Cowboy with a beautiful octagonal barrel. I love shooting the 45-70 "Gubment". A potent cartridge that lets you eat right up to the bullet hole. I like shooting a Speer 400 gr. flatnose or a Barnes 300 gr solid copper hollowpoint. Heap big medicine on anything that walks.
Yotebuster Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Whip Very Happy Well, someone finally mentioned the only rifle I need. 1. dependable 2. can be used on anything from deer to elephant/Rhino 3. Ammo can still be bought under a buck a round 4. my first deer round is still my favorite round, period.

How much does a hot 300 open up to on impact? Is it possible that my hardcast round makes as large a wound channel as a hot 300?

just casting for answers.

Walt Hiding

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Howdy .45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879
RIFLE MAGAZINE, NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1977
THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.
Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!
The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:
"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.
In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."
The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.
The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.
The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.
The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.
The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.
The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.
SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY
ANGLES OF ELEVATION
1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"
VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS
Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"
Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.
At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.
The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.
The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.
The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.
The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.
Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.
In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.
When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.
Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".
The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.
The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.
The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.
The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.
At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.
In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.
In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.
For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.
The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.
In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.
For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.
While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.
Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.
W. John Farquharson
Reprinted with permission from the
November/December 1977 issue of Rifle Magazine, [www.riflemagazine.com].

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Very Happy Very Happy Bonk Shooting
OK y'all, Heres some trivia for the 45/70 lovers. Truth is stranger than fiction.

.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879
RIFLE MAGAZINE, NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1977
THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.
Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!
The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:
"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.
In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."
The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.
The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.
The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.
The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.
The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.
The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.
SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY
ANGLES OF ELEVATION
1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"
VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS
Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"
Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.
At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.
The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.
The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.
The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.
The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.
Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.
In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.
When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.
Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".
The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.
The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.
The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.
The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.
At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.
In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.
In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.
For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.
The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.
In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.
For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.
While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.
Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.
W. John Farquharson
Reprinted with permission from the
November/December 1977 issue of Rifle Magazine, [www.riflemagazine.com].


Very Happy Very Happy Cheers Party Very Happy Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 10506
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Walt....That's a lot of typin' there...Maybe you need to get a hobby.... Popcorn

Good read...And a bit of history to boot...

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
Snyper
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Dec 03, 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Eastern North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

You left out my 44 Mag so I didnt get to vote. The Marlin 1894S is a great woods gun

_________________
One Shot One Kill .... It saves a lot of ammo!
Back to top
View user's profile
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Gotta confess Bushmaster. Cut and Paste is a lot easier than typing. HEH HEH> I just did a lot of reading on what rifle would be the best all around and was pleasantlysurprised to find the old 45/70 (over 135 years old) was still the best rifle if I only had one in a survival situation.

A 22 mag revolver or pistol for small game and standard equipment and I would be safe, even if lost in the Wilderness.

Your thoughts?

Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
1895ss
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 2613
Location: Not Here...!!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Snyper wrote:
You left out my 44 Mag so I didnt get to vote. The Marlin 1894S is a great woods gun

It's there.......... 4th row down, .357mag or .44 mag..

_________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.
'Tis far better to walk alone than to follow a crowd or an a**hole going the wrong way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shomebigbores
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 77
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Marlin shooters? Reply with quote

Yep, and the 1894 in 45 colt is good too. Buffalo Bore loads them to the same speed as 44 mag.

Good woods guns, both of them 1895ss. Dave Clements has agreed to take a Ruger in 45 colt and make it a 454 for me. It is a Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 colt.

Walt

_________________
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Big Game Hunting
Page 2 of 4
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.