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I need some fire forming help
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

I'm trying to fire form some brass to save some money on new brass. I'm trying to get 8x58rimmed Danish using 7.62x54rimmed. I have the brass primed but have conflicting info on fire forming and was wondering if you guys had any experience with it.

I tried to cold form some 45-70 brass after annealing (only did one) and got lots of wrinkles in the neck but otherwise it formed. Don't really know how to do it. The 45-70 rims would need to be turned smaller too but I think I can do that on my wood lathe.

7.62x54r has just slightly smaller rim, but can be used and the final length will be shorter (as the 45-70 will). Then of course my next trick will be to ask you guys about what a shorter case and longer jump to leade will do.

Also my garage door broke and I can't get into my shop, but I can at least dream can't I?


Suz

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

I'm lookin' fer stuff...

www.handloadersbench.c.../9130.html

www.chuckhawks.com/swe..._rifle.htm

forums.gunboards.com/s...anish-Krag

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Best wishes, Suz. I hope you end up saying money.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Load those 7.62 Russians with a normal load and shoot them through your gun. That was what my gunsmith told me to do with my 358 and 308 rounds.

They will form fine and you don't have to worry much about the pressure because the bullet will just bounce down the bore. Don't plan on hitting anything with it either - the 308 diameter bullet won't stabilize in the 8mm bore.

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Hey Pumpkin that last one is helpful with forming 45-70 brass, I'll give it a second try. I have the die but maybe I didn't anneal the brass enough. He says the dents will fireform once you shoot them. I'll haveta see if I can run them through the die without dents. One other article mentions Gad custom reloading and I called him today. Older guy with an attitude, I got a kick out of him. I ordered some brass from him way cheaper than anybody else's prices. I got 40 cases for $50 including shipping. Other places want $60 for 20 cases. I first asked him if he had any loaded ammo and he kinda flew off the handle and said "NO! I don't have loaded ammo sittin around here, every piece is hand loaded to order, are you crazy?" I wanted to laugh but I just went ahead and asked if he could just supply some brass. He asked if I had dies and I said yes and then he quoted me a price of $22 for 20. He was kinda fun, but I guess from what he was saying he was just tryin to get a few things done today.

So anyway I got some brass on the way but I still have to fireform some brass that I've already primed. I don't have dies for this 7.62x 54r but I primed 10 rnds to fireform. From what I've read, you anneal the case at the shoulder and up and then prime, then put in some fast pistol powder (I have some Unique but don't know how much to use) then top it off with corn meal (or cream of wheat or..) then put a patch of toilet paper on top, some people say to use wax, some say glue, some say glue stick, some use TPaper, or styrofoam or waxed milk carton, cotton ball the list goes on and on. I would think glue would make a mess inside the barrel, as would glue stick or even wax but at least you could clean out a soft wax.

It doesn't sound to me like you need much. The case is bottle necked and with the filler above the powder I can imagine it gets compressed at the neck, by the force of the powder going off and expands the brass as it escapes. Just a guess that it's enough force going from the larger diameter of the bottle to the smaller diameter of the neck, to force the brass to expand.

Suz

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Do you even need the bullet? Don't some use chalk or wades to keep the powder in the case. Even without the bullet, there is enough pressure to form the brass to the chamber.

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Hey Paul, you posted as I was writing. So yeah I've heard that one too. Thing is I don't have an idea of what a loaded round would do. I have loaded rounds but they're pretty hot. The bullet is .311 and the barrel is about .326 (it's hard to measure, there's six grooves), so it's a smaller bullet but jacketed. Will that mess with my barrel any?


Suz

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Never been a fan of using pistol powders in rifle cases. Easiest way to fire-form is to use a starting load listed in your manual and seat the proper bullet far enough out to just press against the rifling in the bore. This keeps the base of the brass firmly against the breech and allows the brass to form forward into the shoulder area without stretching in the area of the case head (which will cause quicker case-head separation). Doing it this way eliminates the need for fillers with their accompanying messes.

Most of the times I've seen people use the "bounce down the barrel" method have resulted in a pretty high degree of split brass due to the lack of adequate support in the chamber. Not sure I would want a bullet just bouncing along in a good barrel anyway. Maybe it works for others.

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Ominivision1
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

What SSL says, use a starting load to fireform your brass.

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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

+1 what SSL said

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Suzanne
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Well.......a starting load is another little hurtle I haven't jumped yet. Here's the best up to date I can find and it's well documented, but needs some interpretation, and if you look it over, that just might take a while for me. I need to write it all down and make it more readable, (like, at a glance, readable).

I thought blowing out the cases without expending a bullet was a good idea. I could put a bullet in the case but why waste a bullet if you don't have to?

Suz

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Use Trail Boss and fill the case to just below the neck.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

I have fired a number of 308 cases in my 358 and no problems with the barrel at all. the pressure doesn't get as high as it would in a 308 because the bullet doesn't seal the bore but the cases come out nicely formed.
Just shoot the ones you still have bullets in and see what you think.

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inthedark
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: I need some fire forming help Reply with quote

Great sting everyone. I'm learning something here. Pardon me,... please continue.

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