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How are law enforcement trained?
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

I've observed several police/law enforcement shootings the past 9 months starting with the two NYC police officers who shot a man who drew his 1911 for the purpose of having the police offices kill him (suicidal). The police shot 14 times and hit 9 bystanders. That was a 1-shot situation (maybe a double tap with a 9mm).

www.foxnews.com/us/201...e-gunfire/


Then I see the picture of the blue Toyota pickup the LA police shot up by mistake when they were hunting Dorner.

ktla.com/2013/02/09/de...z2RQhDqDqN


Then the boat hideout in Boston

www.nydailynews.com/ne...-1.1324526

Why do they fire so many rounds? These aren’t Army rangers in a firefight in Afghanistan. These were all situation on streets or in a neighborhoods with innocent people all around. I can’t believe no one was hit or property damaged. All they needed to do to end that situation in Boston was to send someone upstairs using a rifle with a thermal scope and the man-hunt would have been over with one shot.

How did the bombing suspect and the driver of the blue Toyota live? Look all the holes in the truck and boat. I've seen the photos of the first suspects body full of holes but I won't post that. What bullets are these guys using that over-penetrate so much and appear to be ineffective? I certainly wouldn’t use them in a deer/hog hunting situation. To me, all these situations were excessive and unnecessary use of force.
I know I am an armchair quarterback here. If I was LE, I wouldn’t carry a rifle less than a 6.8. Just wanted your opinions.

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

a real catch 22 I suppose. too much gun and the ANTIs crawl all over it , too little and cops get killed by baddy in a shootout. I believe the police cant be over gunned, they can however use excessive force but here in NZ at least I dont believe that happens often as they get jumped on from a great height. yip a real hunter /shooter/marksman would use 1 shot and end it, but realistickly how often is he/she the Johny on the spot so to speak and when they are you dont hear about it.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

When I worked in nuclear security I was trained that if you had to shoot you kept shooting until the threat was neutralized. No handgun round produces 100% "one shot stops" so I'd assume that several shots would have to be fired for each threat.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

SJ, when you would hunt that way you would soon have a shortage on labels...

I only can find 1 explanation: fear.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

Slim...I agree with all of the comments above mate. As Elvis says...damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Punkin is 100% correct, keep shooting until the threat is neutralised, and if that means reloading and continue firing then so be it. Aloys nailed the most likely explanation though...a combination of fear and adrenalin.

If you were to ask a LEO how many rounds he fired immediately after a shoot out, there would be very few who could tell you exactly how many they fired, simply because they go into survival mode and counting their rounds is not necessarily on their mind.

However, having said that, nothing beats regular training with ALL of your tools of trade to ensure competency and survival. In the Army we practised our weapons handling so much that actions became a drill...something you do exactly the same every time without conscious thought.

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pete4d
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

Jim .... In both of the photo's,, the suspects were unarmed by all the official reports ,,, The blue pickup truck just cost LAPD 4.2 million dollars.

Most cops are only trained to be revenue collectors, they don't have to be able to hit the target, that isn't moving, 50% of the time.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

The NYC police that fired so many shots at a man how never pulled the trigger even once were most likely driven by fear. I beat they get insufficient training. I probably get more trigger time and training in my carbine action and 3-gun matches I do.

I have to believe that the LE agents involved in the blue Toyota truck and the Boston boat situations were very well trained. They used way to much force for the situation in populated areas. In the boat situation, they had plenty of time to think and I've heard there were as many as 4000 LE agents surrounding the one suspect in the boat. The had a helicopter overhead watching him with a therma camera. There is where they should have engaged the suspect from.

I did see some new on TV where they started to show bullet impacts on houses in the area. One went through their exterior wall and through their couch where, fortuneately, no one was sitting at the time.

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Donut Slayer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

If I had to guess....I'd say due to budget cuts, firearm training is a all time low now cause of the ammo shortage. Our dept has cut training from twice a year at 8hrs each time to once and just 4hrs. And 90% of that training was standing around re-facing targets and picking up brass. I shoot 10x more on my own than with my dept. Also, most depts will only let you use the rounds they say you can, so nothing bigger than a 40 or 223. I'm one of the few officers at my 400 man dept that has a m-4 issued to me. They wont give me a 308, as its too much gun. So I guess I can use a little deadly force, just not a lot.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

Donut Slayer, thanks for the feedback. Do they issue you FMJs?

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English Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

I shoot far more than most, if not all Authorised Firearms Officers do here in the UK, with at least 100 rounds a week of .22rf through a rifle to keep my hand in & more than 1,000 each of centrefire handgun & rifle every year. I've shot against Police "marksmen" & found their abilities to be mediocre at best.

There are really three issues here where LE shooting is concerned:

Firstly, their decision making process that leads to the trigger being pulled.

Secondly, their ability to hit & stop the threat with less than what appears to be "spray & pray".

Thirdly, the lack of situational awareness displayed when in an urban environment. From all the gunfire last week, it's a miracle no innocent people were hit.

IMO when they shot up the boat, they displayed poor judgement in all three areas.
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Donut Slayer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

Slim, no FMJ's. Remington Golden sabre JHP's for our glocks and remington 64gr SP's for the m-4.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

English Mike wrote:
There are really three issues here where LE shooting is concerned:

Firstly, their decision making process that leads to the trigger being pulled.

Secondly, their ability to hit & stop the threat with less than what appears to be "spray & pray".

Thirdly, the lack of situational awareness displayed when in an urban environment. From all the gunfire last week, it's a miracle no innocent people were hit.

I too am amazed no innocent people were hit.


English Mike wrote:
IMO when they shot up the boat, they displayed poor judgement in all three areas.

I am with you 100% on this one English Mike. Already wounded and surrounded with 4000 LE agents. There was plenty of other options. Some are saying they saw the suspect had a cloth on a stick.

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Aloysius
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Some are saying they saw the suspect had a cloth on a stick.


maybe he ran out of toilet paper?

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Elvis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

fmj .223 are/can be more damaging than hollows or soft point. just try out some yellow boxed norinco rounds if you can find them. they must tumble cause they leave a big wound channel in animals the size of goats or wallabies which really are about the same mass as what we are discussing here.
I have seen a officer here in NZ fire a .308 round into the head of a cattle beast to put her out of her misery (some dope tipped his truck over a year ago almost to the day ) the shot did what it was supposed to but he fired with myself and 10-15 others DIRECTLY in line behind the cow!!!! he had the option of firing from the side which would have put any stray round out harmlessly into a dirt bank. as it was if he had missed/misjudged the shot it could have bounced off the tarseal into us.
all comes down to training I believe.
the chap was in a situation new to him and didnt have the life experience to see what SHOULD have been done.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: How are law enforcement trained? Reply with quote

The problem with FMJs is they usually over penetrate. Not something you want in an urban situation. The two NYC police officers hit the suspect 10 out of 14 shots. Nine other people were injured so it can be concluded that many of the bullets were pass throughs. They caused more harm than good by their actions.

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