"KNOCK" down POWER!!
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#46: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: ShomebigboresLocation: Arizona PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:21 am
Party Poke Wave
HAHAHAHAHAHA Well well Spacey, I grew up in Missouri and have heard all about the venerable 30. Like I said, I have owned them. The best of them. If you are so worried about money how can you afford to go hunting all over the world? None of my business!

This is the reason I don't write in forums. There is always one know it all that is insulted when he is proven wrong. I'm sorry that you wear your ego on your shoulder son. I'm an old man, a crazy Viet Nam combat Vet that paints his own line, I've been places and done things I wouldn't recommend to anyone, and I wouldn't trade the experience for anyone elses life. I'm not rich, but I know how to save money for a hunt. I personally like to stalk my prey. That is where I get my charge, and not from riding out in a pickup and shooting an animal at 10,000 yards or some other high risk shot. I like good, clean kills.

Another point is that I know my rifle (notice rifle in the singular) point 2 is I know my rifle. Point 3. is I always know the weapon I plan to kill with. I used a 30 cal in the military. I won't talk much about it, but your elk at 400 yds is a cakewalk as they don't shoot back.

Also sonny, please don't call me a fool. I have challenged your opine, that's all, so don't get your Missouri butt in a place you can't get out of by getting "nasty" here. I am having fun. You are going to be some of that fun. I apologize if your insults are funny to me, but I have lived through too much to let your childish behavior and silly opines bother me. You are really a thin skinned kid. Whip Point Whip Mr. Green Howdy Very Happy

Try your famous 30 call at 3,500 yards sonny. hahahaha ANNNNNDDDDD I QUOTE A REPORT OF OVER ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF AGE,

.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879
THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.
Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!
The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:
"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.
In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."
The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.
The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.
The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.
The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.
The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.
The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.
1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"
Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"
Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.
At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.
The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.
The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.
The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.
The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.
Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.
In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.
When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.
Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".
The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.
The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.
The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.
The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.
At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.
In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.
In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.
For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.
The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.
In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.
For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.
While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.
Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.
W. John Farquharson
Reprinted with permission from the
November/December 1977 issue of Rifle Magazine, [www.riflemagazine.com].

Toughen up son, no one here is trying to hurt your feelings. Stop the name calling and state your opine. That's what this site is really for.

Walt Salute Flag Wave ROFL ROFL Very Happy

#47: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: ShomebigboresLocation: Arizona PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:28 am
Just to place another fact into the scheme, Marlin sells a very nice and practical 45/70 for about 479 bucks. That is what was used by Vince Lupo in Africa. Here is one of his stories. You can find it at www.garrettcartridges.com



Vincent R. Lupo

The Romans named him "Hippopotamus" or Water Horse. They used that word in recognition of its fantastic speed underwater and ON LAND! But the name falls woefully short of a more accurate description. What they should have called him is Death Horse! What appears to be a calm pond, or a peacefully meandering African river, may in fact be a deadly water crossing. Surely, the first thing that comes to your mind is Crocodile! The Crocodile is without a doubt a fearsome prehistoric eating machine. He has rightfully earned that reputation as he almost always attempts to extract his "toll" from anything or anyone on or near his waters.
But what may surprise you is the fact that the Hippopotamus kills more people in Africa then all the other animals combined! Yes, that's right, it's the unseen Hippo resting or cruising under the water or the placid super large, sluggish looking Hippo, calmly grazing on the low grasses at its feet that is the true menace.

For it is the Roman Water Horse, the Hippopotamus, that is the champion African "bringer of death". The Romans should have in deed named him "Death Horse".

Given this horrific African reputation, it is understandable that the Hippo has now been added to the list of African Dangerous Game, moving the big five (Elephant, Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, Lion and Leopard) to the BIG SIX!

The Hippo thusly became an intragal part of my dream and my quest to harvest the African Dangerous Game Big Six.

The task of locating a great Hippo now fell to Danie Clifford, veteran African professional hunter, and his crew of native scouts and trackers. Danie, pronounced Donny, is the owner and operator of Mahlapholane Safari and Hunting Lodge, and is truly a storehouse of great African hunting lore and experiences.

In no time at all, Donny was telling me that his scouts had located a massive bull Hippo and we would "have a go at him" in the morning. By now, Donny was well aware of my hunting capabilities, in as much as I had already completed several safaris with him and had harvested about 35 beautiful African animals along with five (5) of the Big Six. So the amount of time he spent with me discussing bullet placement and Hippo characteristics seemed "extra ordinary". It became very clear to me that my PH held the Hippo in high esteem and wanted to ensure a good, safe and successful Hippo hunt. Donny had become accustomed to the bark of my Marlin lever action Garrett Cartridge loaded 45-70 rifle. He had seen the devastation it wrought on both plains game, using 420gr Garrett Hammerheads, and Elephant and Rhino using 540gr Garrett Hammerheads. His advice to me was, "load it with the heavies, we are going after the big boss Hippo".

Morning came slowly and brought with it a classic African June winter chill. Right at 36 degrees. Enough to cause a long, smoky looking tail as you exhaled. We gathered our war party and off we went. The chief scout had already relayed his information to the PH and the trackers. Donny told me that there was a small lake up ahead and around the bend. He hoped that the boss bull Hippo would be there, and most of all, in a "shootable" location, preferably on land and close by. As we quietly moved forward, and carefully placed our feet in the trackers footprints, we saw the front tracker suddenly freeze in his footsteps. Instantly we all froze.

Slowly, the tracker raised his hand and with his index finger pointed at the bushes in front of him. He then raised his finger t his lips in the universal QUIET sign. We slowly, carefully, and silently moved forward to the trackers front position and there he was! My heart began pounding so fiercely in my chest that I swore it sounded like a drum that would alert the huge Hippo. He was in deed a huge boss bull Hippo, standing alone facing me about 15 feet from the lakes edge, munching head down on some tender grasses. BUT he was also only about 15 feet in front of me!

The PH slowly slid up alongside of me and tapped his finger to the bridge of his nose between his eyes several times. There was no doubt about what he wanted me to do. Nail the big bull between the eyes as his head was down and his attention was on eating. I eased the hammer back from half cock to the full back position and gently squeezed the trigger when the crosshairs of my scope held firmly on a spot between the Hippo's eyes. CLICK! The loudest click I had ever heard in my life sent waves of shivers down my spine. My mind went into "overdrive" trying to analyze what had happened. The stunned look on my PH's face must have mirrored my own as I saw his huge double rifle begin to move up towards his shoulder. But my mind had already told me that I had NOT pushed off the cross bolt safety and the hammer had slammed home on the safety bar. My fingers had already pulled the hammer back and released the safety button and had realigned the rifle so that I now again could take up my sight picture. Only this time the bull was looking straight at me and appeared to be coiling to spring forward into a full charge. But my had already left the barrel hitting the Hippo perfectly between the eyes and dropping him in his own footprints. He no sooner hit the ground than I slammed another 540gr Hammerhead bullet two inches to the left and two inches above the first bullets impact hole. The whole chilling event seemed like hours to me but in reality took seconds.

High fives, great back slapping, with jubilant laughter and celebration as we quickly crossed the 15 feet to my dead Hippo bull. While standing alongside of this magnificent animal, it finely came to me, that after a 13-month quest, I had completed my dream of taking the African Dangerous Game Big Six!

What a great trophy and what a memorable way to conclude my quest!

#48: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: Dimitri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:46 am
in the hands of a average person the 45 70 is basically a rifled improved slug shootgun with a range of about 150 yards while of 303 will not only kill elk at 300 yards reliably but can shoot 1200 yards if needed {my ladder sight is set to 1300 yards with a actual kill/hit target range of about 600 yards and it cost me 175 dollars including the BSA scope.

Just because your British Enfield No.3 Mark4 has sights that go that far doesnt mean anyone in there right mind would consider it good to take shots that far. Shocked

Take it from Shomebigbores, shooting that far is possible but it doesnt mean anything in real world conditions.. Smile Think of it this way the longest shot ever in a combat situation was 2430 meters with a 50cal and that took 2 shots Wink

I know of shots out to 600 yards with iron sights that hit basketball sized targets wtf But the shooter was a great shot hense why he was able to do it with the Enfield. Shocked

Some suggested reading by real experts in shooting long range: www.snipercountry.com/...Metres.asp


#49: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: BushmasterLocation: Ava, Missouri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:51 pm
Shucks....And here I was satisfied with my little Thutty-thutty. Now you want me to go out and buy a .45-70??? Hummmmm...Might not be a bad idea at that Very Happy ...Even though I use two rifles (.30-30 Winchester and .30-06 Browning) I have to side with Shomebigbore. besides the .303 enfield is an obsolete round replaced by better more versitile calibres. Yes. I know. So is the Thutty-Thutty. But it is such a fun rifle to hunt with...And for Pettey sake...Calm down...This is only a talk forum for passing ideas. Not attacking each other...Though I DO find that fun too. Cheers

#50: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: shrpshtrjoeLocation: Maryland PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:14 pm
If i'm not mistaken there are more deer taken with the 30-30 than any other round in the US. It's a fine deer cartridge bushmaster and i can tell from your posts you no what your 30-30 will do and you don't exceed it's limitations. If we adhere to the limitions of our weapons they more often than not get the job done.

#51: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: 515034s10ringLocation: Working my way back up and around PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:19 pm
You are absolutely correct shrpshtrjoe, and the second to the 30-30 is the 30/06 Cool

Wow, and just think.....Bushmaster had it right after all these years.......Hi'ya Bushy Nananana

#52: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: 1895ssLocation: Not Here...!! PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:37 pm
Spacedone wrote:

in the hands of a average person the 45 70 is basically a rifled improved slug shootgun with a range of about 150 yards while of 303 will not only kill elk at 300 yards reliably but can shoot 1200 yards if needed {my ladder sight is set to 1300 yards with a actual kill/hit target range of about 600 yards and it cost me 175 dollars including the BSA scope.

Well I would rather have a 45-70 or 30-30 in my hands if an animal was charging at me then a 303. Unless the 303 enfield has changed drastically in the last 30 or 40 yrs (which I don't believe) I would not use them for anything but a "Jack Handle". I had 3 different ones back then and you could not hit the braod side of a barn with them at 100 paces. OK maybe the ones I had were all duds but I wouldn't give you .50 cents for a truck load of them. There is no argument here, I just wouldn't be caught with one in my gun cabinet or anywhere else in the world for that matter. Laughing Razz

Last edited by 1895ss on Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

#53: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: BushmasterLocation: Ava, Missouri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:37 pm
HUH???? I got it right this time??? Well...I'll be damned.... Party

shrpshtrjoe: You're not mistaken and the die sets are still one of the top 10 purchased to this day. And again you are right...If understood it is a fine rifle. I just couldn't resist pokin' fun at the other two. Evil Devil

And Hi'ya to you too 10ring. Cheers

#54: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: shrpshtrjoeLocation: Maryland PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:45 pm
Bushmaster wrote:
I just couldn't resist pokin' fun at the other two. Evil Devil

Now you wouldn't do that would ya Fencing Very Happy Very Happy

1895ss Don't sugar coat it give it to us straight ROFL

#55: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: Dimitri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:56 pm
Since we are on the topic of Lever action rounds what do you think about the 38-55 ??


#56: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: 1895ssLocation: Not Here...!! PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:01 pm
shrpshtrjoe wrote:
Bushmaster wrote:
I just couldn't resist pokin' fun at the other two. Evil Devil
1895ss Don't sugar coat it give it to us straight ROFL

I was being polite I thought....... Smile Poke Wink

#57: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: 515034s10ringLocation: Working my way back up and around PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:09 pm
1895ss wrote:
shrpshtrjoe wrote:
Bushmaster wrote:
I just couldn't resist pokin' fun at the other two. Evil Devil
1895ss Don't sugar coat it give it to us straight ROFL

I was being polite I thought....... Smile Poke Wink



#58: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: BushmasterLocation: Ava, Missouri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:20 pm
1895ss...Smile when you say "Jack Handle"!!!

Dimitri....38-55 is an old cartridge, as is the .30-30, chambered for the Winchester '92 and the Ballard. I believe that the '92 Winchester and the Ballard have gone except for replicas. There are soo many modern calibres to choose from that I would put it near the bottom of the list. Some of the old "big bore" calibres are seeing a comeback mostly because of the trend to relive the past in some of us and also the fact that it has been found that a "big bore" slow moving bowling ball works very good, if not better, on big game (Griz, Elk and Moose) at reasonable ranges up to 200 yards for those that need practice and as far out as 400 yards with those that can shoot well at those ranges. If memory serves me .38-55 was a black powder round when first chambered in the '92 winchesters/Ballards and sense been up graded to smokeless for modern rifles. Looking at the data in my Lyman #48 it is a slow but moderate sized bullet. I have to admit that if I was to go to a "big bore" I would have to pass on the .38-55 as the bullet choices are very limited. Where as the .45-70 in all three rifle selections is quite a bit more versital...MY (Not So) HUMBLE OPINION...

Last edited by Bushmaster on Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

#59: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: 1895ssLocation: Not Here...!! PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:32 pm
Bushmaster wrote:
1895ss...Smile when you say "Jack Handle"!!!

"Jack Handle" Smile Smile Smile

#60: Re: "KNOCK" down POWER!! Author: BushmasterLocation: Ava, Missouri PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:41 pm
I hate it when you read my mind before I post...How did you do that?? 1995ss..................

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