HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: taptistabenn
New Today: 1
New Yesterday: 1
Overall: 12476

People Online:
Members: 1
Visitors: 45
BOT: 4
Total: 50
Who Is Where:
 Members:
01: hunterjoe21 > Forums
 Visitors:
01: Your Account
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Photo Albums
08: Forums
09: Forums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Photo Albums
13: Photo Albums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Home
18: Forums
19: Forums
20: Forums
21: Photo Albums
22: Forums
23: Your Account
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Home
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Forums
30: Forums
31: Forums
32: Forums
33: Forums
34: Forums
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Forums
39: Forums
40: Your Account
41: Forums
42: Forums
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Photo Albums
  BOT:
01: Forums
02: Photo Albums
03: Your Account
04: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 304
 Pictures: 2340
  · Views: 296558
  · Votes: 1302
  · Comments: 85
 

Support our Advertisers

Hold over or under?
Discussion that doesnt fit other Topics
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » General

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stovepipe
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4809
Location: Pine, Az.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I like this line of thinking... what say you?

Besides the "Flat Shooting" myth, there are other common misunderstood concepts. For example, I'm often asked about a particular cartridge, "How much does it drop at 200 yards?" The answer is ZERO... if I'm sighted in for 200 yards! The bullet drop at any range depends on what range the gun is sighted in for. Look at it this way: The trajectory of a bullet carries it first upward and then downward (in an arch) until it hits the target. Beyond the range of the target, the bullet has already begun its downward plunge and continues to drop at an accelerating rate. And, the steeper this after-target angle of descent becomes the more difficult it is to estimate "Hold-over". In my opinion, figuring to aim high at ranges beyond your sight zero is the wrong approach.
Here's is my reasoning: The angles of ascent and descent are much shallower and more predictable in the portion of a trajectory that's between the gun muzzle and the zeroed sight distance. So, the better approach is to sight the gun in for the maximum distance that's practical for one sight setting and estimate how much to hold "Under" at shots taken under that distance. This way, you don't have to be especially good at judging distances... if in doubt, just aim a little low. Maybe its time to look at some numbers... Here are four cartridges with 200 yard zeroed sight trajectories taken from the ballistic charts in the Hornady Reloading Manuals:

Etc.

cc.bingj.com/cache.asp...e,9dd94dd7
Back to top
View user's profile
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

When I read the title I was confused ... thought you were talking about sight picture ...



However I get what your saying, another method you can use is by using a mildot rifle scope, you simply do the math to figure out drop past the zero to use as hold over marks at ranges. Similar to why they have "ballistic" recitcles on rifle scopes now. That is how I am set up with my M1A and the Trijicon with a mildot.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
chambered221
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 3448
Location: Lost for good !!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

To me it seems to be just another way of doing a point blank range sight in !!!

_________________
Ask as many people needed, sooner or later your question will be answered the way you want it answered !!!

A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
~George Washington
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dimitri
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 5906
Location: Southern Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

And Point Blank range sighting is a good method over all.

Hence why M1's and M14's were left at the 500yard/500meter mark, aim for the guys waist, and the bullet will land on them within that range in the upper body.

Its worked for a great many years, however we must remember, we really only have a 6" target, not a 3 foot target. So our range using the point blank method is limited practically speaking.

Dimitri

_________________
A thousand hills, but no birds in flight, ten thousand paths, with no people's tracks. A lonely boat, a straw-hatted old man, fishing alone in the cold river snow.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7128
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I have had trouble sighting in for a long range then holding under for accurate shot placement. A couple years back, I had a back/spin shot on a deer once but had to hold under to make the shot. It was mentally challenging to place the cross in the brush and tall grass to get the shot off - which I was unable to do. Now I sight in at 100 years so I can thread the needle at close range and worry about hold over at longer ranges when there is usually more time.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
wiersy111
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 2347
Location: Central Minnesota

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I gotta say I agree with slimjim there is generally more time to calculate hold over at long range.

_________________
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."

US ARMY RETIRED

The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.

Being "Over the Hill" is much better then being under it!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
1895ss
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 2613
Location: West of Here!!

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Well............... shooting deer with my 25-06, sighted in to be on at 250 yards, shoots at most approx 2 3/4" above the line of site out to 250 yrds ....................... why would I want/bother to hold under???? Especially if I'm aiming for the boiler room!!!!! Surprised

_________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.
'Tis far better to walk alone than to follow a crowd or an a**hole going the wrong way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7128
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

The discussion in the first link debates the benfits of sighting in at even longer ranges so your highest point of impact above the LOS might be 6 inches or more.

_________________
"To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth." - Theodore Roosevelt

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile
stovepipe
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4809
Location: Pine, Az.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Well, w/o getting all nutty about it all here's what I came away with (and have read about this before):

If I'm zero'd for 300y w/ my .300WM w/ most 150gr 'ish loads:
I'm only 3.5" high at 100y, 4" high at 200y, etc.

I can hold dead on or a tick low at any range up to 300y, or even a little beyond, w/o any hold over or even thinking about it for a quick shot and still be in the vitals.

Even at a 400y zero I'd only have to hold low 6" at the most up to 300y range and it'd still be in the soup bowl. But that's kinda stretching the formula there and way beyond my ethical range.

I've had many tell me "just sight in 2" high at 100y"...then hold over on the rest, w/o knowing load, caliber or trajectory. I also liked the point made about holding low vs. high :

Here's is my reasoning: The angles of ascent and descent are much shallower and more predictable in the portion of a trajectory that's between the gun muzzle and the zeroed sight distance.
So, the better approach is to sight the gun in for the maximum distance that's practical for one sight setting and estimate how much to hold "Under" at shots taken under that distance. This way, you don't have to be especially good at judging distances... if in doubt, just aim a little low.
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 3404
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Here is my thought on the subject, bear in mind that I am conservative in my techniques.
First rule; aim small, miss small; so:
two inch point blank circle.
Sight the gun at the range where the highest point above the line of sight is 1" and then calculate the maximum range where the drop is 1".
That is usually around 180 - 200 yards. (rifle)
Most of the time a 10 mph wind will give about 1" deflection before that range so I try to limit my shots to within that range.

If field conditions are imperfect I can easily "guestimate" a 200 yard shot and be well inside the 6-8" kill zone of a deer. I was raised shooting head and neck shots and my method has always worked - especially when the shot requires a body shot because the head and neck are hidden.
I hav seen too many "hunters" that shoot when they should let it go and then have to track a gut shot animal until it collapses - then complain about the "gamey" taste. Clean kills are a show of respect for the animal and what it provides at the table.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
stovepipe
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 4809
Location: Pine, Az.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Very interesting perspective.

Copy on the ethics!
Back to top
View user's profile
bracer
Member
Member


Joined: Dec 24, 2009
Posts: 46
Location: Prairie Dog Country

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Down load the ballistics program-enter the required data for your ammo. You can change the site in the yard range . You also can select the point blank range that fits you target size. A bullet starts dropping from the line of the rifle bore when it exits the muzzle. With a scope site the bullet is below the line of site then goes above the line of site then dropes below the line of site. How much raise or drop from the line of site depends on the distance the firearm is sited in for.

_________________
tuck2
Back to top
View user's profile
BigBlue
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jan 16, 2006
Posts: 1105
Location: Lehigh Township, Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

In my case most of my rifles are sighted in for a 100 yard zero. The areas that I hunt are thickly wooded and in many cases you can't see more than 50 yards even in the winter. In that case you have to "thread the needle" to get your shot through the brush without deflection. I do have two rifles, sighted for a 4" point blank range, that I keep for hunting in more open farmed areas. I do have a cheat sheet written on painters tape that I stick to the rifles stock. It shows zero and hold over for ranges out to 300 yards.
Notice the blue tape on this rifle.
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
slimjim
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 16, 2009
Posts: 7128
Location: Fort Worth TX

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

BigBlue wrote:
"thread the needle"

That's why I sight in for 100 yards. I can hold over and get within the 6-inch or so kill zone if I have to shoot longer range.
Back to top
View user's profile
gelandangan
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: May 07, 2006
Posts: 5743
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I shoot slow cartridges.
In fact beside the .308 Win and .223 Rem, all other of my cartridges going about 1400 fps.
This I have to content with banana rainbow trajectory.

Although here in Oz, the hunting plains are wide and flat, there is always some brushes to cover stalkers.
so I usually do not shoot unless the animal is within 100 meters (my zero range for the rifles)
If I have to go over that range, which is very rare, I would then bring my .308 Win which I zero at 200 meters.

My method of aiming is as such, if the thicker part of my cross hair reticle can cover the ear of my prey,
then it is too far for me to shoot.
Mind you my scopes are usually less than 6x power.

_________________
A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
A smile is the shortest distance between two people.

The government I trust .. is my .45-70 Government.

Do - Not try!


gelandangan.weebly.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » General
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Advertisements
 


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by Dizfunkshunal :.