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Hold over or under?
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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I like this line of thinking... what say you?

Besides the "Flat Shooting" myth, there are other common misunderstood concepts. For example, I'm often asked about a particular cartridge, "How much does it drop at 200 yards?" The answer is ZERO... if I'm sighted in for 200 yards! The bullet drop at any range depends on what range the gun is sighted in for. Look at it this way: The trajectory of a bullet carries it first upward and then downward (in an arch) until it hits the target. Beyond the range of the target, the bullet has already begun its downward plunge and continues to drop at an accelerating rate. And, the steeper this after-target angle of descent becomes the more difficult it is to estimate "Hold-over". In my opinion, figuring to aim high at ranges beyond your sight zero is the wrong approach.
Here's is my reasoning: The angles of ascent and descent are much shallower and more predictable in the portion of a trajectory that's between the gun muzzle and the zeroed sight distance. So, the better approach is to sight the gun in for the maximum distance that's practical for one sight setting and estimate how much to hold "Under" at shots taken under that distance. This way, you don't have to be especially good at judging distances... if in doubt, just aim a little low. Maybe its time to look at some numbers... Here are four cartridges with 200 yard zeroed sight trajectories taken from the ballistic charts in the Hornady Reloading Manuals:

Etc.

cc.bingj.com/cache.asp...e,9dd94dd7
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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

When I read the title I was confused ... thought you were talking about sight picture ...



However I get what your saying, another method you can use is by using a mildot rifle scope, you simply do the math to figure out drop past the zero to use as hold over marks at ranges. Similar to why they have "ballistic" recitcles on rifle scopes now. That is how I am set up with my M1A and the Trijicon with a mildot.

Dimitri

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

To me it seems to be just another way of doing a point blank range sight in !!!

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

And Point Blank range sighting is a good method over all.

Hence why M1's and M14's were left at the 500yard/500meter mark, aim for the guys waist, and the bullet will land on them within that range in the upper body.

Its worked for a great many years, however we must remember, we really only have a 6" target, not a 3 foot target. So our range using the point blank method is limited practically speaking.

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I have had trouble sighting in for a long range then holding under for accurate shot placement. A couple years back, I had a back/spin shot on a deer once but had to hold under to make the shot. It was mentally challenging to place the cross in the brush and tall grass to get the shot off - which I was unable to do. Now I sight in at 100 years so I can thread the needle at close range and worry about hold over at longer ranges when there is usually more time.

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wiersy111
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I gotta say I agree with slimjim there is generally more time to calculate hold over at long range.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Well............... shooting deer with my 25-06, sighted in to be on at 250 yards, shoots at most approx 2 3/4" above the line of site out to 250 yrds ....................... why would I want/bother to hold under???? Especially if I'm aiming for the boiler room!!!!! Surprised

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slimjim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

The discussion in the first link debates the benfits of sighting in at even longer ranges so your highest point of impact above the LOS might be 6 inches or more.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Well, w/o getting all nutty about it all here's what I came away with (and have read about this before):

If I'm zero'd for 300y w/ my .300WM w/ most 150gr 'ish loads:
I'm only 3.5" high at 100y, 4" high at 200y, etc.

I can hold dead on or a tick low at any range up to 300y, or even a little beyond, w/o any hold over or even thinking about it for a quick shot and still be in the vitals.

Even at a 400y zero I'd only have to hold low 6" at the most up to 300y range and it'd still be in the soup bowl. But that's kinda stretching the formula there and way beyond my ethical range.

I've had many tell me "just sight in 2" high at 100y"...then hold over on the rest, w/o knowing load, caliber or trajectory. I also liked the point made about holding low vs. high :

Here's is my reasoning: The angles of ascent and descent are much shallower and more predictable in the portion of a trajectory that's between the gun muzzle and the zeroed sight distance.
So, the better approach is to sight the gun in for the maximum distance that's practical for one sight setting and estimate how much to hold "Under" at shots taken under that distance. This way, you don't have to be especially good at judging distances... if in doubt, just aim a little low.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Here is my thought on the subject, bear in mind that I am conservative in my techniques.
First rule; aim small, miss small; so:
two inch point blank circle.
Sight the gun at the range where the highest point above the line of sight is 1" and then calculate the maximum range where the drop is 1".
That is usually around 180 - 200 yards. (rifle)
Most of the time a 10 mph wind will give about 1" deflection before that range so I try to limit my shots to within that range.

If field conditions are imperfect I can easily "guestimate" a 200 yard shot and be well inside the 6-8" kill zone of a deer. I was raised shooting head and neck shots and my method has always worked - especially when the shot requires a body shot because the head and neck are hidden.
I hav seen too many "hunters" that shoot when they should let it go and then have to track a gut shot animal until it collapses - then complain about the "gamey" taste. Clean kills are a show of respect for the animal and what it provides at the table.

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stovepipe
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Very interesting perspective.

Copy on the ethics!
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bracer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

Down load the ballistics program-enter the required data for your ammo. You can change the site in the yard range . You also can select the point blank range that fits you target size. A bullet starts dropping from the line of the rifle bore when it exits the muzzle. With a scope site the bullet is below the line of site then goes above the line of site then dropes below the line of site. How much raise or drop from the line of site depends on the distance the firearm is sited in for.

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BigBlue
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

In my case most of my rifles are sighted in for a 100 yard zero. The areas that I hunt are thickly wooded and in many cases you can't see more than 50 yards even in the winter. In that case you have to "thread the needle" to get your shot through the brush without deflection. I do have two rifles, sighted for a 4" point blank range, that I keep for hunting in more open farmed areas. I do have a cheat sheet written on painters tape that I stick to the rifles stock. It shows zero and hold over for ranges out to 300 yards.
Notice the blue tape on this rifle.
Don
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

BigBlue wrote:
"thread the needle"

That's why I sight in for 100 yards. I can hold over and get within the 6-inch or so kill zone if I have to shoot longer range.
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gelandangan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Hold over or under? Reply with quote

I shoot slow cartridges.
In fact beside the .308 Win and .223 Rem, all other of my cartridges going about 1400 fps.
This I have to content with banana rainbow trajectory.

Although here in Oz, the hunting plains are wide and flat, there is always some brushes to cover stalkers.
so I usually do not shoot unless the animal is within 100 meters (my zero range for the rifles)
If I have to go over that range, which is very rare, I would then bring my .308 Win which I zero at 200 meters.

My method of aiming is as such, if the thicker part of my cross hair reticle can cover the ear of my prey,
then it is too far for me to shoot.
Mind you my scopes are usually less than 6x power.

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