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Fire forming brass
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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toddco
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I have just bought a new .243 and am looking to fire form some brass for it. I have heard of some guys using bullseye powder and starting at half case capacity and working up from there. Has anyone else tried this or anything similar? Also it is cold up here in Alberta now so if anyone has any experience with how some of these powders react to cold temperatures that would help as well.

Thanks,

Toddco
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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I'd think that a .243 case half full of Bullseye would cause a pretty good explosion! I sure wouldn't try it without some extensive research!

I'm confused as to why you want to fire form .243 brass since it is readily available.

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Pumpkinslinger wrote:
I'm confused as to why you want to fire form .243 brass since it is readily available.

I'm betting he has a 243 AI in which case he doesn't need to fireform anything. All he needs to do is load up standard 243 loads and as he shoots he'll fireform. Accuracy will probably be equivalent to and velocity a bit less than with already formed 243 AI brass.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I'm betting he just wants to blow them out to the chamber and set his sizing die for that gun !!!


There are oatmeal and cream of wheat methods that wildcatters and benchrest shooters use, might want to check them out.
I'll see if I can't find some details on them.


Hodgdon has several powders that are classified as their Extreme Powders that are said to work in a wide range of temps. (0*-125*) I have personally confirmed their statements with Varget over a chronograph in the 30*-85* weather with no real velocity difference.
Compared to the W748 I had previously used gave about a 75-80 fps difference.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Toddco,
Load your ammo using a load that is about half way between minimum and maximum load for your fire-forming. Use the heaviest junk bullets you have laying around. That will form your brass and get some practice shooting in at the same time. You can never get too much time working on trigger pull and breathing.

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I should have edited my last response to say the only pistol powder fire forming I know about includes the use of cream of wheat or oatmeal without a bullet.


As for a "how to" it appears everyone does things a little differently !!!
The basis of the idea is to put some pistol powder in a case top it off with the cow or om and use some sort of a plug (tissue, batting, crisco) and fire in the chamber.
I personally think a .243 case half full of Bullseye could be more than whats needed.
Should you venture into this method I suggest talking with someone who has actually done it.

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longwalker
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Before you get to far into it I would suggest you reload with full length sizing, first. The very cold temperatures will effect the pressure and ultimately your velocity.

I have this experience with my Savage 110 338-06. in cold temps. - 15 and below. I found that loads I worked up in South Dakota fired just fine but the velocity was off somewhat.

If you work up loads using standard loading practice from a good loading manual you will be able to safely reload ammunition to suit your needs. As you gain experience you will learn what your rifle likes and doesn't like. Accurate and consistent ammunition being the ultimate goal.

Longwalker
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dennymac
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Good morning. There is a big difference between 'fire forming' brass and making 'once fired' brass. Fire forming is generally accepted as one of the final steps in making a different cartridge from a standard round. If you are just making once fired brass, load it as you would normally load the round and beat feet to the range. Have a great day. DennyMac
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

dennymac wrote:
There is a big difference between 'fire forming' brass and making 'once fired' brass. Fire forming is generally accepted as one of the final steps in making a different cartridge from a standard round. If you are just making once fired brass, load it as you would normally load the round and beat feet to the range.

I have to agree. If you are only forming the brass to be a good fit in your chamber, Mac is correct...load them up and fire them. The real trick comes afterward. Make sure you adjust your dies to size the cases fired in your chamber as little as possible and still fit your chamber. With brass that fits your chamber as close to perfectly as possible you can devote your time to bullet seating depth and powders for best accuracy.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Toddco, still there? Help us out some! What are you trying to do? As you can see there are a nuumber of knowledgable folks here willing to help!

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toddco
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Okay guys, here is a little more insight in to what i am trying to do. My brass is smaller than my chamber, so i want to size it to my chamber by firing it without bullets. As an example a friend of mine knows his chamber length, bought some new nosler brass and it was approx. 8 thou shorter than his chamber, he was able to find some info using bullseye powder to size his brass. When we were experimenting with his sizing we experienced differences in sizing between dry shots. One of the questions i had was if anyone had similar experiences. What happened was we started with a measured amount of powder and worked up until the brass came out full length. The temperature was -20 degrees celsius, we were in a shack heated with propane(very wet type of heat). After a few rounds of sizing we started to see differences in performance of powder and had to stop the process.

Thanks for all of the input

Toddco
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toddco
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I should also add that powder, primers, and bullets are in very short supply here, and a lot of other places, so when we can buy them we have to sometimes settle for less or different than what we really want. So the quicker i can get to the closest i can get to perfection in the most economical journey the better off i will be with the least amount of frustration. Also i only neck size my brass, only bumping the shoulder back a very slight amount.
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chambered221
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Having a better understanding of what your trying to accomplish......I agree with the others to load them up with the cheap stuff and fire-form to your chamber. However I do understand why you want to do this.

Did you place some sort of media in the case to take up the air space left over and use a plug?
This is done to help create a more consistent pressure.
If not back down on the charge if you decide to start over.
From what I’ve read about methods of this nature they will not form the edges to the sharpness of actual fire-forming.


As for your case re-sizing.....If your using a FL die set to do a partial FL job the chances are your also sizing some of the body.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

Just my opinion but...

My practice with new brass is to run it through my sizing die and then trim all cases to the same length. This gives me a known starting point and I can get back to it easily. Then I just start working up a load, or use an established one. Personally I wouldn't go through the extra effort to try to blow the case out to fit my chamber first.

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PaulS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Fire forming brass Reply with quote

I always fire new cases with a moderate load to get them to fit my chamber. Then I just neck size, trim (useless normally), sort and start the load work-up from there. I tend to be a bit anal retentive about the initial process but it helps me keep my groups down to under 1/2 MOA.

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