Beginner's 'luck'....

Vince · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

chambered221 wrote:

Trailboss is marketed under IMR !!!

The book I have is from 2005 and states low velocity lead bullets.

If that has changed I would definitly be intrested !!!

Hey big fella....this is straight from the manufacturer of Trail Boss here in Australia.

Trail Boss

They only indicate lead boolits with Trail Boss powder.

Hey Gelan...you had to jump in with logic and commonsense didn't ya mate. I dunno what to do wiv ya. Confused

Cheers, Vince

gelandangan · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Hi VInce, my current project is just finished and on production so I have spare brain cells to use.

I may have to travel again end of the year.. dang!!

Vince · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Awesome mate....another trip to China I see. Oh well mate...at least your business is holding up in this current economic crisis.

Good luck mate...and post some details of your now finished project.

Cheers, Vince

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Vince wrote:

this is straight from the manufacturer of Trail Boss here in Australia.

I guess I should have said "Here in the U.S. it's maketed under IMR"

Pumpkinslinger · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Sorry guys, I was very wrong about jacketed bullets and Trail Boss. I rechecked the Hodgdon "Annual Manual" 2008. Trail Boss was only for lead bullet loads. I think sleep deprivation caused me to confuse Trail Boss and Titegroup. Bet you're thinking that you don't want to stand next to me at the range either... Embarassed

Rainier suggests that you use lead bullet loads for their plated bullets but I couldn't find any similar info for X-Treme so I think I'd call and ask before using them.

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Pumpkinslinger wrote:

Bet you're thinking that you don't want to stand next to me at the range either... Embarassed

At least it would be a honest mistake/accident, not some vodoo mishap !!!

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

gelandangan wrote:

I think if you are after velocity in the snubbie, you should try some faster powder, because slow powder on a snubbie do not burn efficiently.

This is a very often misunderstood and often overlooked area !!!

Take your snubby and a chronograph and do some testing.
What you’ll find is your magnum loads do not produce magnum velocities.
Then shoot some target type loads and some middle of the road loads and compare your results. Your not going to have the range of velocity you think you should have.

The reason for this is the lack of gas expansion that takes place in the barrel.
The short barrel does not allow enough time for the powder burn and gas expansion to work together the way they need to.
The powder does burn. (most believe it doesn’t)That’s why you still have the loud boom and muzzle blast of a mag load but not the speed.

Even a .44mag needs at least 18-20 inches of barrel to reach it’s highest velocity potential.

gelandangan · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Hi Chamber,

I just quickly plug in the data off the first post on Quickload.

44 Mag
Nosler 44842 240gn JHP
23gn H110
and ASSUMING 1.610 inch OAL

here is the result on 2 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 679 FPS
Muzzle Pressure 20386 PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 42.59%
Ballistic efficiency of 5.4% (thats five point four percent)

here is the result on a 18 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 1613 FPS
Muzzle Pressure 2430PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 86.37%
Ballistic efficiency of 30.7%

You can see that the amount of propellant burnt INSIDE the chamber/barrel differs greatly due to the length of the barrel.
Yes the powder would still burn even after it got out of the barrel, but those energy are no longer used to push the projectile.
Instead, it creates a large BOOM.

Now for a contrast,
we are using 8 grain of RED DOT (a very fast powder)
Assuming all the same as above,

here is the result on 2 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 710 FPS
Muzzle Pressure 15755 PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 100%
Ballistic efficiency of 15.4%

here is the result on a 18 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 1257 FPS
Muzzle Pressure 900PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 100%
Ballistic efficiency of 48.5%

Here you can see that the longer 8 inch barrel do not increase the velocity much.
Why? this is because that all the powder already burnt within the first 2 inches and the rest of the pressure is now working against the friction of the barrel.

But the 2 inch does benefit (a little) in velocity, plus getting great benefit in muzzle pressure.
It is a much tamer load with a big reduction in noise.

The biggest difference between these two loads is the maximum chamber pressure..
23gn of H110 gives a max pressure of 24285 PSI
where 8 grain of RED DOT gives 29216 PSI

Now I believe the SAAMI states that 44 mag is rated at 36000 PSI, these loads should be safe to use.
However, as these are theoritical loads, you should approach these loads with care.

gelandangan · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Addition..

Just for grin I put in the same load data but using 6.5grains of Win 231 as proposed by Eric

here is the result on 2 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 514 FPS
Muzzle Pressure 10820PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 90.36%
Ballistic efficiency of 11.2%

here is the result on a 18 inch barrel
Muzzle Velocity 1042FPS
Muzzle Pressure 704PSI
Amount of propellant burnt 100%
Ballistic efficiency of 45.9%

A very pleasant and mild load indeed..

Good load gives you quick follow up shots and good accuracy.
The target usually do not care about the velocity of the projectile,
OTOH they definitely care about whether or not the projectile hits them.

Q. What is worse than getting shot? A. Getting shot twice!!

chambered221 · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Hey gelandangan !!!

I hope you don’t think I was disagreeing with you.
I was only trying to prove your point with the chronograph testing.
I’m not as fortunate as you to have a copy of Quick Load !!! Mad

I did noticed the amount of powder burn stat in your data.
I would rather not argue this point, only because the professionals can’t seem to agree on it either. Argue

gelandangan · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Chambs
It is ok to disagree.. I learn more when people disagree with me,
and I am here to learn more on this sport I love.

Quickload is a theoretical program, it does not replace tried and true load development method.

They also have some variables that you got to fill in yourself for a closer estimation.
Those variables are such as Air pressure, temperature, roughness of the barrel, Long barrel friction, changes of brisance in the powder batches, softness of the copper jacket, the hardness of cast bullet, type of lube, barrel geometry and a whole bunch of other factors.

I still go to the range and check up my load with my (shot-up) chrony.

I would love to read more about internal ballistics if you have links for them.

chambered221 · Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Yes, nothing like a good argument !!! Sometimes !!! As long as it stays civil and nobody gets hurt !!! Or in this case the computer screen doesn’t get destroyed !!! Smash

I wish I had some links to give you (and the others ) on ballistics.
Most of the knowledge I have was gained years ago before the whole computer thing. It’s only been a few weeks now that I’ve regained my interest in ballistics. Mostly “terminal ballistics” has been my focus.

When BigBlue posted this link:
www.rathcoombe.net/sci...nding.html
I jumped all over it. Just prior to that Pumpkinslinger put me onto a book wrote by Robert A. Rinker -Understanding Firearm Ballistics

Talk about timing !!!

I got the book just for the 3 chapters on terminal ballistics. I’ve read those chapters twice now and have started to read the whole book.
It’s funny sometimes when you remember what you’ve forgotten. wtf

And it’s somewhat ironic how these issues have come to light recently on Hunting Nut !!! Werd

I would highly recommend this book to anyone wanting knowledge in the area of ballistics.

Should anyone else be able to provide links or books on the subject, I would appreciate it greatly.
Like you Geland “ I am here to learn more on this sport I love.”
Roses

shrpshtrjoe · Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Here's a site that has some good in fo on it Very Happy

www.exteriorballistics.../index.cfm

Joe

stovepipe · Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Pumpkinslinger wrote:

Kevin, a rough spot there could do it, hope you got it fixed! Let us know.

Put 50 rounds through it Friday night, all is well. No issues with ammo or gun. Cool

*

I'm aware of the effects of short bbl's on vel/etc.... I'm not after screamer's in the snubby, or in anything. That's not why I'm reloading.
I am working up a reduced load for it and for practice indoors (as prev stated).

I've been reading up on plated bullets. They prefer their own recepie from some text I've found. It's OK to use recipe's for something less than some full-house jacketed bullet recipe's and a little more than lead bullets. Some manuals like Speer may have plated bullet info in them, LEE does. I'm being vague on 'details' due to time etc.

Speaking of LEE. Got my bench done and some stuff set up on it last night. Stay tuned for more info and pics.

Been raining a bunch out here. Gonna be good amounts of grasses and such...varmints and others will be snackin' and populating soon. Food chain should be good to go this year.

ElyBoy · Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner's 'luck'....

Ya know---after all of this talk on "short barrels"--- I got to thinking
Insane

I sure would feel sorry for a guy who has to go through life having a short barrel weapon, and not being able to burn all of his powder. Parental Advisory

Eric