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Barrel contact with stock and accuracy
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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lesterg3
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Wow, that’s a lot of information guys, and thanks for all of it. To answer Shrpshtrjoe’s question, the groupings at 100 or 200 yards are just not what I would expect form a Remington 700. My Savage 110 .270 gives me ¾ inch groups at 100 and 1 inch groups at 200, so I expect that at least from the Remington. With the Remington I am shooting 1 3/4 to 2 inch at 100 and 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 inch at 200. I don’t have anyplace that I can shoot longer ranges at.

As far as the barrel touching the fore stock I went to the Remington Society’s web site and did a little research. This is the way the rifle was manufactured; I can slide a .003 shim between the barrel and the stock at the breech barrel interception point and slide it out towards the forearm, the shim stops at 2.750 inches from the end of the forearm. So that’s the way they made it. Thanks for the tip Dimitri.

While I was there I thought I would try to determine the date of manufacture, their code indicate the rifle was manufactured in Feb. of 1964. Further they advise the twist rate then was 1 in 9", does anyone think this is wrong? I had no idea the rifle was this old, it is in excellent shape.

I have checked the bore as well as I can for damage at the muzzle and in the bore and it appears to be in excellent shape.

At first I suspected the grouping problem was due to the cheap scope I bought for it, a BSA Platinum Target Rifle Scope 6-24x 44mm Adjustable Objective 1/8 MOA Dot Reticule, and thought "Oh well", lesson learned, but that did not turn out to be the case as I also tried my Leupold 3x9x40, and my Simmons 4x12x40. They did not improve anything, and as a matter of fact I put the BSA scope on the Savage and its grouping is as good as ever.

So, here’s what I intend to do.

1. Get a copy of the Remington owners’ manual for that year. (If anyone has it, let’s talk) so I can make sure everything is torqued correctly as Vince advises.

2. Since hunting season is over, tear down the rifle, clean and rebuild shimming the action for clearance on the fore arm as mentioned by Pumpkinslinger. Further check for damage as Shootist recommends.

3. Refinish the stock completely to assure that the problem is not due to warpage or humidity as Wncchester described. The stock does have some wear and a few scratches.

3. Reassemble and sight her back in.

If this corrects the problem then I will have the stock glass bedded with a free floating barrel, if not I don’t know what else to do.

Does this sound like a plan, any additional comments? Am I missing anything else, as long as I am doing all the above is there something else I should do?

TRBLSHTR, got your post after I wrote this post. That sounds very logical; however I do not rapid fire. Normally I take three shots and let the barrel cool. But you information is very interesting, and if there is another way to diminish barrel vibration it sounds like glass bedding and free floating the barrel should be a standard practice.

Thanks again Guys!!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -- Thomas Jefferson

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison

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chambered221
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

TRBLSHTR, Not that I disagree with you but, I can’t agree with you either !!!

I’ve seen barrels over the years that needed the pressure point to make them shoot better. Maybe it’s because of a bad barrel, like you suggested, I don’t know. The fact is, those barrels shot better with pressure.

As for rapid fire in the woods ????????????????????????

Over the years I’ve only needed to take a second shot a hand full of times, so I really don’t care how high my POI would rise in my deer rifle.

All I know is my Model 7 will consistently shoot well under a inch with a cold or warmed barrel.

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woods
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Anybody ever try one of these?

www.webspawner.com/use...index.html

All my rifles shoot best free floated and action/lug bedded but I have been wondering if just a little pressure might make a difference. With the bughole tuner it looks like you could just back it out and not have the pressure it that is what you wanted.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Woods,

This looks like another version of the type system that serious Ruger #1 shooters have used to eliminate vertical stringing for quite some time. Using variable pressure screws or even the proper shim (my personal choice) between the barrels and fore-end hangers on the #1s work great. It isn't unreasonable to think they would work well on other rifle actions. Thanks for sharing.

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Very Happy chambered 221-ditto on the agree/disagree part.As for your personal shooting standards-congratulations.But for my use in benchrest,varmint,and biggame huntingI always use a 5 shot grouping to be the standard of function.Yes you can take a pos pressure forearm and shoot consistant 5 shot groups-if you wait 3-5 minutes between shots to allow the barrel to return to it's original position.The reason that the factor(ies) build guns this way is because it is less expensive(read;cheaper bottom line)and eliminates further steps in the production process.They know that most people will be satisfied with the factory configuration.However-I am not!Case in point-I just recently aquired a savage mod10LE mcmillan in 308.Being interested in the quality of thissniperquality firearm I tore it down.Now I was suprised to find that it had no glass bedding,no pillar blocks,no"vee" blocks,but the barrel was free floated and the action screws have a specific torque value.All of the weapons that I know to have been tested by the resident savage team were all just about 1 hole shooters @ 100yds(5 shots@<1/2 inch)after barrel break in.Don't believe that mine will remain stock as far as action bedding.Because I still think it can be improved upon! Shocked

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Vince
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Gidday Troubles.

What you say has merit mate, obviously proven by your experimentation and testing.

How much higher have you found the Point of Impact (POI) to be in the second and subsequent shots? Is it significant or only minor?

However, I can't speak for the others, but certainly in a hunting situation I have never had to apply "rapid fire" . The only scenario where I can see I could be doing this is, if were to get amongst a mob of pigs, and then I would be using my Mod 94 lever gun or 12g...and up to a couple of inches in any direction is the least of my worries...I doubt that I could even come close to holding the exact same point of aim.

Then of course there is the old "buck fever" affliction, which we all suffer from to varying degrees at one time or another. This induces a raised heartbeat, excitement and a drop in control of the firearm because the shooter is not thinking about the principles of the Rule of Aim and the Sequence of Firing a Shot. All of this equates to a change in the POI for any shot.

During my time as an Infantry soldier I have used "rapid fire" many, many times, and I think that the biggest concern you have is not the bedding or a pressure point, but control of recoil and maintaining a firm constant grip and "mount" of the rifle. Without this, your POI will change for every shot anyway...albeit only small amounts.

Certainly on the the range, when you are shooting for group size and checking the zero of your firearm your POI, and any variations, would become obvious, but even then, I don't see why anybody would want to use "rapid fire" to zero or confirm POI.

I'd certainly be interested in your results/improvements from your experience in bedding actions...especially with synthetic stocked firearms.

Cheers, Vince

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TRBLSHTR
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Very Happy Vince the rapid fire scenarios are those cases where on certain occasions I have been privelidged to come across(varmints)groundhogs,or rockchucks in a family outing where the 1st and follow up shots can be rapid to try to nail as many as possible before they go back into their burrow.The second is when the coyotes here "pack" in the winter,and and occasionally have come across 3 or 4 or 5 all running together or feeding on a carcass,or being called in .And last when hunting the larger game and backing up a buddy that got buck fever and has already shot 3-4 rounds and the animal is wounded and running.Now as for battlefield scenarios I did'nt have to worry about my bolt gun as I had the old 16a1 that could gobble up a 30rd mag every 4 seconds if you keep you trigger depressed.
Now for the POI /POA-I have seen some guns that will change 1/2inch between shots at 100 yds and some that will change 3 inches or better between shots.Now I know that for most a 1/2' or a 3" shift is not much at 100 yds,but now multiply that by the yardage increasing as the animal or game is running away and the poi/poa becomes drastically significant.And I could probably write a short novel about bedding of synthetic stocks but it usually involves how much money and time that you want to spend and what level of accuracy that you want to achieve.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Gidday Troubles...ok understand now mate.

Its a bit like when you come across a large rabbit warren with a heap of the little buggers sunning themselves.

Used to carry the same M16A1 myself....great little rifle until you got a build up of crud under the extractor...instant double feed. The M4 with its burst capability has solved that problem. I initially carried the L1A1 SLR (FN) in 7.62mm..a heavier, but much harder hitting and more "useful" rifle. Then we went over to the current rifle, the F88 Austeyr. Great little bullpup design, but it is in 5.56mm...a calibre that I believe to be a bit small for the battlefield...even though it has proven itself many times over. I much prefer a knock down, drag 'em out calibre. But that is a whole new argument that belongs elsewhere.

I zero my .243 to a Point Blank Range of around 250m which gives me sufficient "fudge factor" out to around 300m for a 3" variation in POI to be acceptable...I work on a 6" - 8" kill zone with dog and upwards size game. This is of course assuming that I do my bit. Very Happy Very Happy Laughing

To get back on topic. I had a look at the link for the Bughole Tuner that woods put up...an interesting concept. Might just have to look at this a little further.

Cheers, Vince

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K.W.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

You can to make a test for pressure point. Put tight cartboard between the barrel and front part of the stock. Hitting poin shall to be higher, but the group smaler. Rolling Eyes
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K.W.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

You can to make a test for pressure point. Put tight cartboard between the barrel and front part of the stock. Hitting poin shall to be higher, but the group smaler. Rolling Eyes
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lesterg3
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Theory - Effect of thermal expansion on POI at 100 yards and 200 yards.

At one point many years ago I was a tool & die maker and specifically I worked on precision gages, holding tolerances in the millionths. So I am some what familiar what effect heat has on a precision part dimensions.

So I gave this topic a little thought and came up with the following, someone needs to test this theory. I will the first chance I get, but that will not be for awhile.

Assume the following:

24 inch barrel.
Barrel at interception with action is always 0 (zero).
Center of barrel’s contact with forearm of stock 8 inches, call this the fulcrum.
The diameter of the barrel at forearm stock contact is .765.
Steel expands .000065 of an inch per degree Fahrenheit.
Use .5 of that dimension because only half of the barrel is contacting stock.
Assume a 20 degree increase in barrel temperature F.

That means the barrels point of contact with the stock will push the barrel upwards .0065. That would be the same affect of placing a .0065 shim under your barrel at tne point of contact with the barrel.

Now multiply that times your range in inches plus the length of the barrel from the fulcrum to the end, in my case 16 inches, so.

At 100 yards I am multiplying 3616 times the .0065, which equals an upward movement of 2.350 inches from initial POI.

At 200 yards it’s 7216 times the constant for an upward movement of 4.690 inches from initial POI.

That is, to me at least, substantial.

I am not a mathematician, or a physicist, so this formula may not be entirely correct, and I am certain that there are other influences, such as the expansion of the wood or synthetic stock at the fulcrum, and does the barrel action interception point really stay at zero, but even if this is half right it is certainly something to think about.

I think I am sold on free floating the barrel, and dealing with harmonic frequencies some other way.

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"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."--James Madison

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Just one more log on the barrel fire here... I have a 30-06 that MUST be fouled to group well. The first shot from a clean cold barrel is significantly ( +3,R2@100yds) different from a shot from a cold barrel that had a few rounds down it. Then it will hold MOA or better all day. I check the zero but then I will only run a bore snake through it but not scrub it out until the season is over.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

One more simple trick for you Lester, push a Q-tip in the bore lightly and remove it to see if any minute burrs are on the crown. If you get any fibers clinging to the muzzle a simple recrowning will do wonders for accuracy too.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Shooting at a running deer is on the lines of unethical !!!
A wounded deer will usually lay down somewhere just out of your sight.
Give him 30 minutes or so and sneak in down wind of him.

Don’t get me wrong I’m all in favor of a good shooting deer rifle.
But what I don’t need to do is spend money on a deer rifle that will put 10 shots in a 1 inch group in less than 2 minutes !!!

Just for the record I have tested my Model 7 with 5 and 10 shot groups.(no cooling time allowed)
It was done on different days with temps. ranging from 20-50 degrees. The temps I usually hunt in. Shot #6 or #7 will take the just over 1 inch group strait to 2 inches or better.


My advise and 2 cents worth is quit trying to turn your deer rifles into varmit and bench rest guns.
If you got a gun shooting 2 inches or better like lesterg3, then by all means do something about it. Just don’t spend more than you need to.
Pillar and glass bedding do make improvements, but why do that if all you need is a little more or less pressure from the stock ????

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Barrel contact with stock and accuracy Reply with quote

Dawgdad,

Your rifle isn't unusual at all. Most rifles will place the first or second shots from a clean bore into different groups than subsequent shots. Though it doesn't always work with every rifle, try running several dry patches through and then scrubbing your bore with a bronze (not brass) bore brush just before that first shot. This sometimes has the result of conditioning a bore to minimize those errant first shots. No guarantee, but worth a try.

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