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Flawed or not, will this work?
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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BigBlack
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Okay I want accuracy plus speed. I know faster does not always equate to better accuracy but I want a blend of both. Here is my game plan on developing some future hand loads. My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components and since I have started reloading various calibers I am working up a collection of partial powder containers.

Step 1: Load up one cartridge of each weight stepping up in .5 grain increments from min to max. Shoot each cartridge over the chronograph going from lightest charged to heaviest. Watching for pressure signs and monitoring speed. This step is basically to test the upper end of the charge scale and see if it is safe in my rifle and also to see the approximate fps gain for each half grain increment and see if the speed increase flattens at a given point.

Step 2: Once complete with step one load up 3 cartridges each of the top 5 loads from above. Now shoot these for groups at 100 still using my chronograph. If one load shows promise then work around it in smaller increments and more shots per group (maybe 5). If not try a different powder that I have on hand known to work in the cartridge I am loading and repeat from step 1.

Again my goal is to find a good accurate load with upper end velocity. I know sometimes slower is more accurate in certain combinations, but I feel with the right combination I should be able to get both or at least a good balance.

Thinking out loud but thought this would be good food for the brain!

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

To get anywhere near some idea of fps you need to send at least three of the same load over the chronograph to get an average. More then three is better, but....This will also tell you if it is an accurate load or not. Providing you ar shooting at a target too.

Out of the above groups you pick the best one and tinker with it to see if it can be impoved. Then you change bullet or maybe powder or maybe case...And do it all over again...

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Last edited by Bushmaster on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dawgdad
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Do not try to re-invent the wheel. Search this sight for information on Audettes ladder and Dan Newberry's optimal charge weight methods for determining a good load.Once you optimize the powder charge tweak the accuracy by making adjustments to the bullet jump distance. Most of my rifles shoot best .020 -.010 off the lands and I have to use a Comparator/ogive length gauge to set that not cartridge OAL to the tip of the bullet.

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Pumpkinslinger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

BigBlack, take a look at this site >> www.the-long-family.com/

IMO the Optimal Charge Weight seems the way to go for load development. (I wonder if that will start a ruckus...)

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Grant
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

I for one don't care about the bullet speed per say. I do like the load to be on the higher end of the FPS for bullet weight and powder, but if the accuracy load is closer to the starting load speed, that's okay by me.

I only really use two powders, IMR4064 and IMR4831. In my 30/30 and my 250/3000 I use the IMR4064 and in everything else the IMR4831. So, I don't try and confuse the equation by adding in multiple possible elements. I pick the bullet weight I want to use for the desired effect. I'm a big bullet fan and usually use the heaviest or very close to the heaviest bullet for a particular caliber. And then I load up 3 rounds starting at or just above the starting load listed and go up in 1/2 grain increments. When I find the most accurate load, I may tweak it a little, but I stick with it from there.

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tikkat3
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

BigBlack Quote

"My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components"

Re subject 'Flawed or not'
Answer - Flawed.
I'm with Pumpinslinger go OCW and you will find the fastest most accurate load, with minimul use of components.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Gidday Big Black. Mate, the guys have said it all.

Being a reformed speed nut...that don't sound good...being a reformed high FPS nut Laughing I learned a long time ago that speed and accuracy do not always go hand in hand. OK, sometimes they do...but its a rare occurrence.

Have a read of the OCW Method,it works, consider the Audette's Ladder...it didn't really work for me...then put in a little range time. As Bushy said...check speed and accuracy at the same time...save on components mate. Once you have decided on a load then by all means tinker with it. I have found, with Varget (AR2208), that accuracy peaks at about .5 gr below maximum. You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it.

Cheers, Vince

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Big Black, give us some added information regarding the cartridge, the rifle, etc. What bullet weight is being tested and what is the velocity goal?
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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Vince makes a valid point about not using the .5 grain increase on a wholesale basis. Some powders develop pressure faster and in some calibers (notably the various .17s) the difference between enough and way too much can be as little as .2 of a grain.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

The issue with the original post is that much of the wording leaves too much to interpretation as far setting up Big Black's goals. Certainly accuracy and velocity can, and often do, go together. Sometimes not. Some cartridges run better at higher pressures. Some don't. Empirically, if we know the cartridge and we can specify the velocity and accuracy goals, then such essential and basic information allows us to assist him in the process or redirect the efforts as needed.
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BigBlack
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

No paticular rifle in mind with my above statement. I was merely thinking out loud and looking for opinions and thoughts on something that was mulling around between my ears.

I am however working on my .243 using 100gr Game Kings right now.

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Paul Graham
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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Vince wrote:
You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it.

How much of an increment you should use depends on case size. For initial load workup in cartridges the size of the 308 Winchester, I use 1 grain increments until approaching a maximum load at which time the increments go down to 0.5 grains. For a 223 Remington, I would use 0.5 gr. increments. For a 25 ACP the increments would be even smaller. Once I find a promising load, I would perhaps try some cartridges with powder charges a little above and below that load.

If a particular powder in a particular cartridge is so, shall I say picky, that a tiny increment in powder charge makes a big difference in accuracy, then if you work up your load on a 75 degree F day, your accuracy will probably be pretty poor if you shoot that load on a 32 degree F day or a 110 degree F day.

In my opinion, shooting one cartridge of a particular load for velocity is pretty worthless. You need to check a minimum of 3 cartridges for any meaningful information.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Gidday Grumpykin...what you say make good sense mate. By all means start your load development using "bold adjustments" that stay within the safety range. However, why not make use of finer/smaller incremental changes right from the get go...won't necessarily save time or components, but it will get you onto that sweet load a little quicker...which is when the real fun part of handloading starts...the fine tuning of a load.

Most powders these days are not temperature sensitive. I use AR2208 (Varget) which was designed for military use. A powder that displays temperature sensitivity is not acceptable in that scenario.

Mate...you are totally correct when you say firing one round for velocity is worthless. Personally, I like to fire five rounds so that I get a better average and also a more accurate representation of the Standard Deviation. This also allows for that one round that we all know is thrown in by Murphy (the miserable bastard Mad ) just to muck us about.

Cheers, Vince

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Grumulkin
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

I guess my situation is somewhat unique. I can walk out about 100 feet in my back yard to my shooting range. I can make "bold" adjustments and be down at my reloading bench in a couple of minutes to make fine adjustments if I like. If I had to drive half an hour to a shooting range, it would probably be worth my while to load up cartridges in smaller load increments.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? Reply with quote

Ya lucky bugger Grumps....wish I had that sort of facility on hand.

Cheers, Vince

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Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

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