View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
BigBlack Rookie Member
Joined: Mar 07, 2008 Posts: 13 Location: Lyons, GA
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Okay I want accuracy plus speed. I know faster does not always equate to better accuracy but I want a blend of both. Here is my game plan on developing some future hand loads. My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components and since I have started reloading various calibers I am working up a collection of partial powder containers.
Step 1: Load up one cartridge of each weight stepping up in .5 grain increments from min to max. Shoot each cartridge over the chronograph going from lightest charged to heaviest. Watching for pressure signs and monitoring speed. This step is basically to test the upper end of the charge scale and see if it is safe in my rifle and also to see the approximate fps gain for each half grain increment and see if the speed increase flattens at a given point.
Step 2: Once complete with step one load up 3 cartridges each of the top 5 loads from above. Now shoot these for groups at 100 still using my chronograph. If one load shows promise then work around it in smaller increments and more shots per group (maybe 5). If not try a different powder that I have on hand known to work in the cartridge I am loading and repeat from step 1.
Again my goal is to find a good accurate load with upper end velocity. I know sometimes slower is more accurate in certain combinations, but I feel with the right combination I should be able to get both or at least a good balance.
Thinking out loud but thought this would be good food for the brain!
_________________ Paul Graham
Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bushmaster Super Member
Joined: Jun 12, 2005 Posts: 11390 Location: Ava, Missouri
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
To get anywhere near some idea of fps you need to send at least three of the same load over the chronograph to get an average. More then three is better, but....This will also tell you if it is an accurate load or not. Providing you ar shooting at a target too.
Out of the above groups you pick the best one and tinker with it to see if it can be impoved. Then you change bullet or maybe powder or maybe case...And do it all over again...
_________________ I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...
DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Last edited by Bushmaster on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dawgdad Super Member
Joined: Feb 08, 2006 Posts: 1065 Location: On the Prairie
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Do not try to re-invent the wheel. Search this sight for information on Audettes ladder and Dan Newberry's optimal charge weight methods for determining a good load.Once you optimize the powder charge tweak the accuracy by making adjustments to the bullet jump distance. Most of my rifles shoot best .020 -.010 off the lands and I have to use a Comparator/ogive length gauge to set that not cartridge OAL to the tip of the bullet.
_________________ Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Pumpkinslinger Super Member
Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 5001 Location: NC foothills
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
BigBlack, take a look at this site >> www.the-long-family.com/
IMO the Optimal Charge Weight seems the way to go for load development. (I wonder if that will start a ruckus...)
_________________ Mike
"I ain't no better than anybody else, and there ain't nobody better than me!" Ma Kettle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Grant Super Member
Joined: Aug 28, 2006 Posts: 325 Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
tikkat3 Super Member
Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 800
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
BigBlack Quote
"My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components"
Re subject 'Flawed or not'
Answer - Flawed.
I'm with Pumpinslinger go OCW and you will find the fastest most accurate load, with minimul use of components.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Gidday Big Black. Mate, the guys have said it all.
Being a reformed speed nut...that don't sound good...being a reformed high FPS nut I learned a long time ago that speed and accuracy do not always go hand in hand. OK, sometimes they do...but its a rare occurrence.
Have a read of the OCW Method,it works, consider the Audette's Ladder...it didn't really work for me...then put in a little range time. As Bushy said...check speed and accuracy at the same time...save on components mate. Once you have decided on a load then by all means tinker with it. I have found, with Varget (AR2208), that accuracy peaks at about .5 gr below maximum. You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it.
Cheers, Vince
_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Handloader Super Member
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 1032 Location: Phoenix, Arizona
|
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Big Black, give us some added information regarding the cartridge, the rifle, etc. What bullet weight is being tested and what is the velocity goal?
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SingleShotLover Super Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1005 Location: Illinois
|
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Vince makes a valid point about not using the .5 grain increase on a wholesale basis. Some powders develop pressure faster and in some calibers (notably the various .17s) the difference between enough and way too much can be as little as .2 of a grain.
_________________ If you can't hit it with one, you probably can't with two either!
The biggest problem with a closed mind is that it never seems to come with a closed mouth.
SSL |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Handloader Super Member
Joined: Aug 22, 2005 Posts: 1032 Location: Phoenix, Arizona
|
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
The issue with the original post is that much of the wording leaves too much to interpretation as far setting up Big Black's goals. Certainly accuracy and velocity can, and often do, go together. Sometimes not. Some cartridges run better at higher pressures. Some don't. Empirically, if we know the cartridge and we can specify the velocity and accuracy goals, then such essential and basic information allows us to assist him in the process or redirect the efforts as needed.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
BigBlack Rookie Member
Joined: Mar 07, 2008 Posts: 13 Location: Lyons, GA
|
Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
No paticular rifle in mind with my above statement. I was merely thinking out loud and looking for opinions and thoughts on something that was mulling around between my ears.
I am however working on my .243 using 100gr Game Kings right now.
_________________ Paul Graham
Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Grumulkin Super Member
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 365 Location: Central Ohio
|
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Vince wrote: |
You mention that you are going to jump up in 1/2 grain increments...I'd use .3 of a grain...you might be surprised where the accuracy peaks and at .5 gr increments you will most likely jump right over it. |
How much of an increment you should use depends on case size. For initial load workup in cartridges the size of the 308 Winchester, I use 1 grain increments until approaching a maximum load at which time the increments go down to 0.5 grains. For a 223 Remington, I would use 0.5 gr. increments. For a 25 ACP the increments would be even smaller. Once I find a promising load, I would perhaps try some cartridges with powder charges a little above and below that load.
If a particular powder in a particular cartridge is so, shall I say picky, that a tiny increment in powder charge makes a big difference in accuracy, then if you work up your load on a 75 degree F day, your accuracy will probably be pretty poor if you shoot that load on a 32 degree F day or a 110 degree F day.
In my opinion, shooting one cartridge of a particular load for velocity is pretty worthless. You need to check a minimum of 3 cartridges for any meaningful information.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
|
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
Gidday Grumpykin...what you say make good sense mate. By all means start your load development using "bold adjustments" that stay within the safety range. However, why not make use of finer/smaller incremental changes right from the get go...won't necessarily save time or components, but it will get you onto that sweet load a little quicker...which is when the real fun part of handloading starts...the fine tuning of a load.
Most powders these days are not temperature sensitive. I use AR2208 (Varget) which was designed for military use. A powder that displays temperature sensitivity is not acceptable in that scenario.
Mate...you are totally correct when you say firing one round for velocity is worthless. Personally, I like to fire five rounds so that I get a better average and also a more accurate representation of the Standard Deviation. This also allows for that one round that we all know is thrown in by Murphy (the miserable bastard ) just to muck us about.
Cheers, Vince
_________________ Cheers, Vince
Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)
Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.
"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Grumulkin Super Member
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 365 Location: Central Ohio
|
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Flawed or not, will this work? |
|
I guess my situation is somewhat unique. I can walk out about 100 feet in my back yard to my shooting range. I can make "bold" adjustments and be down at my reloading bench in a couple of minutes to make fine adjustments if I like. If I had to drive half an hour to a shooting range, it would probably be worth my while to load up cartridges in smaller load increments.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Vince Site Admin
Joined: May 25, 2005 Posts: 15704 Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|