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Safety ON? Safety OFF?
By Popular Demand: Discussions related to Varmint Hunting
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Bushmaster
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Joined: Jun 12, 2005
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Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Gentleman...I just pulled my Browning A-Bolt from the safe and tried that method mentioned above. Let me tell you...If I tried that with a loaded chamber with this rifle I would have a hole in something that I didn't want a hole in. Holding the trigger back and slowly sending the bolt home the firing pin went home as soon as it closed with a snap. BAD IDEA!!! Who ever said that they used this procedure must have a lot of holes here and there.

So sorry Mikekuzara...But it just wouldn't work with my .30-06 Springfield (Browning)... wtf

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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Poodlepopper
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

My savage has a three position safety, so you can operate the bolt without being able to pull the trigger. Except when shooting it is in the "half-safe" position with the bolt open. Regardless of whether the safety is on I always watch where people are pointing their barrel, even with people I have been out with before. I had one of my friends buddies sweep me with his muzzle once and wont go anywhere near that guy again. He told me not to worry about it, he had been in the army. Sure pal.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Oh ya...Brownings are equiped with a shot gun thumb safety. All of the various trick safetys and other devices still does not make a better rifleman. Unless he is absolutely safety consious. We all forget once in a while and get careless. Sometimes it just can't be helped. Anybody that hasn't made a mistake with the location of the business end of their rifle or handgun probably would lie to a preacher, too...Safetys ON...

Welcome Poodlepopper. Just because he was in the army doesn't excuse him from apologizing...And doing a better job of watching his muzzle...

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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roklok
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Grimel,every bolt action that I am aware of will have the firing pin resting on the primer with the method talked about. Its possible that there is a type out there that doesnt but Im not aware of it. The way to check this is to remove the bolt from the rifle and turn the rear of the bolt or the cocking piece down the camming cut just as it would be when the bolt is closed in the rifle,Im betting you'll see the firing pin protruding through the bolt face. My Remington 700 and Ruger 77 both do. Rifles operate at too high of pressures to have a inertia firing pin as in a lot of shotguns and the 1911 Govt pistol. The full force of the spring is pushing the firing pin forward. Gives me the willys just thinking about carrying a loaded rifle around like that! I do use this exact method to store my unloaded bolt actions to take the tension off the striker spring.
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515034s10ring
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

With rifles, i was taught to hold in a position that as soon as i bring it up to my shoulder, (when already able to identify my target) the safety can be positioned off (plus i'm used to light triggers...so safety is a must on rifles).

Although, i now hunt quite a bit with revolvers and a Glock 10MM, with the both of them having light triggers (4lb and under), and no external safety (i also have carried a Glock or revolver 'or both' daily, for over 14 years now). It's a rarity however, in that i can only recall ever having A revlover and my Glock unholstered (seperate times) while in a clearing and stalking along a brush edge, and the shot being only a minute away (that happened twice in one year....but at this point i practice a two finger hold and a two finger over the trigger guard).
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robfromaz1977
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

mikekuzara wrote:
I always hunt with the safety off. Of course I also hunt with a Springfield 30-06 and always close the bolt with the trigger depressed, lowering the firing pin. When I get ready to shoot I have to lift up the bolt handle and lower it again to cock the firing pin.


I OWN AN 03 SPRINGFIELD AND WOULD NEVER CONSIDER CLOSING THE BOLT WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER. I INSTALLED A TIMNEY SPEEDLOCK SPRING IN MY BOLT SO THE PRESSURE IS ALMOST TWICE THAT OF A ORINGANAL SPRING. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF YOU NEED A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, THE SAFETY WOULD BE THE BETTER ALTERNATIVE. IT WOULD ALSO BE ALOT QUIETER THAN LIFTING THE BOLT TO RECOCK THE GUN. JUST IMAGINE IF YOU DROPPED THAT RIFLE WITH IT IN THE CONDITION YOU CARRY IT IN AND IT LANDED ON THE KNURRELED END OF THE BOLT THAT STICKS OUT FARTHER THAN ON MOST BOLT RIFLES. I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE WITHIN 5 MILES OF YOU.
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heritage1550
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

I agree with the safety on contingent. Mine's always on even if I'm sitting in my deer stand a long way away from anybody. It's too easy to make a mistake you can't fix later.
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mikekuzara
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

I will stick with lowering the pin on a cartridge. I see it as a 50/50 proposition. Which is more dangerous? Having a cartridge under a firing pin that is under tension and only being held back by tiny piece of metal? Or one that has the pin under no tension but closer to the primer?

Just for the record someone complained about the same thing at elk camp a few years back, so I took the rifle, unloaded a cartidge, loaded the empty round and lowered the bolt. Then found a nice solid boulder and using both hands hit the butt of the rifle on the boulder a half dozen times with a result of , nothing.
The only way I can see for a discharge with the bolt lowered, would be to take a direct hit on the end of the firing pin. Since this would mean something would have to fit between the scope and the stock and hit the end of the firing pin perfectly, I think the odds would be dead even that something would cause a discharge with the firing pin cocked and safety on.
Personally, after witnessing the shooting ability and safe handling techniques of 70% of hunters, that 70% should not even have a bullet in the chamber, safety on or off.

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roklok
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

I recall an article in a shooting magazine years ago where the author did some tests with an old bolt action (mauser,I believe) after witnessing a proffessional hunter in Africa carrying his rifle in this manner (firing pin down on loaded chamber). He was using primed cases and dropping the rifle in various ways. He was able to ignite the primers a few times by dropping the rifle onto concrete muzzle first. We have all heard not to use pointed bullets in tubular magazines because of accidental ignition,I would think that a firing pin pushed against the primer with a much heavier spring than in any magazine would be worse.But I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone how to do things,just my opinion.
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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Mikekuzara...I spent the evening trying out your method and I am here to tell you that when I return the bolt to battery I WILL fire the round in the chamber as my firing pin snaps home as the bolt closes. I have the feeling that I would be wearing that bolt as it is not quite locked. There is no doubt in my old and feeble mind on this subject. With the bolt out of the rifle I sent the firing pin home and it protruded from the bolt and I was unable to push it back in using my finger. It took a flat blade screw driver and some pressure to push it in.

I would HIGHLY recommend that the Moderator delete this string or a VERY LOUD DISCLAIMER be added to this string. Again... Sorry Mike, but this is a very dangerous practice and I wouldn't want to have some one try this with a loaded round in their rifle.

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DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
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roklok
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Bushmaster,
hopefully your last post will serve as a disclaimer if nothing else is done.
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

I personally do different things depending on the situation.

For centerfire guns I dont put a shell in the chamber until I'm ready to shoot. On a deer drive, hiking around or riding horses? Safety off, no shell in chamber. See critter jack one in and get ready.

Calling varmints. I will set up, shell in chamber, saftey on. I dont find my guns noisy enough that I cant slip off the safety without making a noise.

Pheasants or upland game (ie shotgun) I keep shell in chamber, safety on.

I shutter at the thought of lowering a firing pin on loaded cartridge though ... I couldnt in good conscience recommend that to anyone.


-DallanC
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mikekuzara
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Location: Farson, Wyoming

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

And I shudder to think of how many people out there carry a rifle with a bullet in the chamber, safety on, and depend on that safety to work.

I have seen at least a half dozen instances over the years of guns discharging when the safety was moved from the on to the off position.

Obviously lowering the bolt will not work on every rifle. And I do not believe I suggested otherwise. Again, I have tested this method, with this particular rifle. Primed, unloaded shell in the chamber, pin lowered, both hands, as hard as I could, hitting the butt of the rifle on a boulder.

The probability of accidental discharge, it seems, would be just as great, or greater, with the bolt cocked and safety on.

The bottom line is that I have had accidental discharges with a .22 rifle and a few handguns. They have never amounted to anything more than a hole in the ground. This is because I ALWAYS keep them pointed in a safe direction. With the exception of my CCW, they are ALWAYS unloaded before I climb into a vehicle, onto a horse, or into or out of a blind. I ALWAYS unload a gun before climbing over any serious rocks or deadfall trees.

Iwill NEVER depend on a mechanical device for safety. I have seen a myriad of holes shot through ceilings, floors, cars, and tents. All were from guns that were on "safe" or "empty". When I carry my rifle I know that when there is a live round in the chamber, I am even MORE careful of how I handle the weapon. It gets unloaded, completely unloaded, before I go inside any building, tent, car, or any other structure.

I would say 70% of the hunters I have seen in the field, I would not hunt with. They slap a round in the chamber, throw the safety on, and walk around like they have a stick in their hands instead of a deadly weapon. I have had people who are no longer my friends because I insisted on opening the action and inspecting the chamber of a gun they handed me, because they felt I did not "trust them" that the gun was unloaded. Friends like that I can do without. Anyone who doesn't open the action and inspect a gun I hand them, doesn't handle another gun of mine, ever.

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coyotehunter_1
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Reguardless, it all comes down to using common sense! Sad

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beezer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Safety ON? Safety OFF? Reply with quote

Safety on. It's OK saying finger off the trigger when you're in a stand but what about when you are stalking through cover? A stick could easily catch the trigger and boy, would that give you a shock if your rifle fired for no reason whilst slung on your shoulder.
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