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The ultimate ML ?
Hunting and discussion with Muzzle Loaders, Archery and other Primitive weapons
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glockman55
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

www.ultimatefirearms.com/index.htm

I would like to shoot one, but that's as far as it goes...TOOOOOO $$$$ Shocked

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Dimitri
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Glockman,

I got to admit they look nice but the whole "500 yard" ability I think is over stated, no way I'd ever shoot a 275gr sabot slug at a animal that far away when it starts at 2,400fps. A 12ga saboted slug shotgun load shoots a 385gr bullet about 2,000fps and I limit my shots with slugs in a shotgun at about 100 yards. Shocked

Dimitri

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Last edited by Dimitri on Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

For that kinda $, they outa guide and load it for you too....

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

I plugged some of their data into PB and came up with:

Range Elevation Velocity Total Drop
400 -42.48 1389 74.90
450 -63.26 1305 99.92
500 -89.01 1229 129.91



Energy (ft/lbs)
@ 400 1179
@ 450 1040
@ 500 922

I guess if you can hit'em at 500 you MIGHT kill'em (a SMALL deer anyway), and by the time your eyes recover from the sun glare from shootin rainbows, the slug should JUST be gettin there (ETA @ 500 is .905 seconds)

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glockman55
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

I'll keep my Encore, 150 yds. would be the max I'd try with a ML. I saw my brother shoot a Mule Deer at 516 yds. with a .270, If I wasn't there I would have never believed he pulled it off. I have never shot anything ( other than a target) over 200 yds. with my 7 mm. mag.

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SingleShotLover
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

The energy figures don't concern me since the 500 yard energy is the same as my .44 Magnum loads with 270-grain LBTs at 40 yards...but that rainbow trajectory is a little daunting! Over 10 feet of drop might just be a little excessive!

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Gigmaster
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

THis is easy for me. I can't even see much farther than 100 yards these days, so that prety much dictates my shots.
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Gigmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

I don't see the big deal.

I have a Parker-Hale Whitworth Rifle (not a replica, but a modern-made Whitworth, from the same company that originally manufactured them...Parker-Hale/Gibbs Rifle Company) that is deadly out to 1000 yards. And mine doesn't have those 'modern' conveiniences like .45 cal casings for the primer. That might disqualify it from muzzleloader season in some states.

I also have a Shiloh Sharpes Military Rifle, Model 1863, that could out-shoot that BP Xpress. I have it fitted with a Tang Sight, and it shoots well at 800+ yards.

If I ever see anyone at the range with one of these, maybe I can talk them into a 'shoot-off', and we'll see if it can measure up to the real thing.

By the way, that Savage rifle that shoots smokeless powder.....I've out-shot everyone who has showed up with one, even with my Pennsylvania Rifle .....no matter what you have, it's still 85% the man, and not the machine.

Just my opinion.......
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Gigmaster wrote:
I don't see the big deal.

I have a Parker-Hale Whitworth Rifle (not a replica, but a modern-made Whitworth, from the same company that originally manufactured them...Parker-Hale/Gibbs Rifle Company) that is deadly out to 1000 yards. And mine doesn't have those 'modern' conveiniences like .45 cal casings for the primer. That might disqualify it from muzzleloader season in some states.

I also have a Shiloh Sharpes Military Rifle, Model 1863, that could out-shoot that BP Xpress. I have it fitted with a Tang Sight, and it shoots well at 800+ yards.

If I ever see anyone at the range with one of these, maybe I can talk them into a 'shoot-off', and we'll see if it can measure up to the real thing.

By the way, that Savage rifle that shoots smokeless powder.....I've out-shot everyone who has showed up with one, even with my Pennsylvania Rifle .....no matter what you have, it's still 85% the man, and not the machine.

Just my opinion.......

Just MY opinion......

To suggest that the average hunter can take 500+ yard shots with a ML rifle is irresponsible at a minimum. Most HUNTERS have trouble taking shots >300 yds. with high power centerfire rifles. Using specialized equipment and practicing at the distances you mention is a different game entirely. I can shoot down an armor plated chopper at 1200 meters with a .50 BMG, it's lethal to deer sized game at well over a mile. Does it mean I should take the shot? For that matter a .22 LR is considered lethal at extreme distances. Should we be shooting squirrels and rabbits at 200 yds with open sights with our favorite .22? It IS lethal.

As a hunter, I prefer a 100 yd shot with my Encore over your 1000 yd shot anyday. Regardless of what you shoot it with.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

I think you misunderstood my post. I don't hunt with those rifles. They are for the range. I was merely comparing the performance data.
There are several reasons I don't hunt with my Whitworth, or my Sharpes.

1. They are very long, and heavy. Unpleasant to carry all day.
2. They were not designed as 'hunting' arms, but to hit an enemy that is shooting at you at great distance. This is a diffeent proposition from stalking and shooting a deer for supper.
3. I use my Whitworth and Sharpes to show off at the range, shoot competitions, re-enactments and rendevous. These are expensive firearms. Hunting is very hard on a rifle, at times. I do not want to mar the beautiy or reliability of them by mis-using them.

Where I live, you will not get a shot more than 60-100 yards, because of the dense woods and terrain. However, I am from TX., and I know that out west, sometimes you might have to take a 300 yard shot, or come home empty. And if you can make that type of shot, consistently, within your skill level and the rifles performance, there is nothing irresponsoible about it. Now, on the other hand, if you shoot 5"6" groups at 100 yards, and never shoot 300+ yards at the range, and then try to take a deer at 300 yards, that is irresponsoible.
I hunt with 2 rifles, and a shotgun. My deer rifle is a .50 CVA Mountain Hunter with a removable scope. I've glass-bedded it. It drives tacks out to 300 yards.
My big-game rifle is a Pedersoli Kodiak Express .72 cal s x s. I use it for Russian Boars, and other dangerous game, and when I go to Alaska. It is good out to 150 yards.
My shotgun is a Pedersoli 12 ga. S x S muzzleoader.

I seldon take shots of over 60 yards when hunting, mainly because I don't want to walk any further than that to recover the animal. Every yard that I shoot at is an added yard that I will have to carry the animal back to the truck. I'm not young anymore. I prefer to get them as close as possible. If I could teach them to climb in the truck on thier own, I would do it!

You mentioned shooting squirrels at 100+ yards with a .22. Actually, that is very common out west. When I was growing up, one of our favorite pass-times was shooting at Prairie Dogs at 200+ Yards. In fact, long-range shooting at varmints and small game has been so popuilar that special cartridges have been designed just for that. The .22 Bee, .22 Hornet, 220 Swift, .22 Mag and .22 Stinger. Again, I am not understanding the question. I didn't even mention hunting in my post, except to say that I'm fairly certain none of my long-range rifles are allowed in Muzzle-Loader season. Most of the 'average' hunters I see have problems with 100 yard shots. I never suggested that anyone take shots at any range while hunting. You have to decide that for your self. My point was, and still is, that success is determined more by the man, than the machine.

Just because I am a former Marine Sniper, and I have graduated from the finest shooting school in the entire world, doesn't mean that I am going to seek out challenging shots when hunting. That's what the gun range is for.

Semper Fi!

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Gigmaster wrote:
I don't see the big deal.

I have a Parker-Hale Whitworth Rifle (not a replica, but a modern-made Whitworth, from the same company that originally manufactured them...Parker-Hale/Gibbs Rifle Company) that is deadly out to 1000 yards. And mine doesn't have those 'modern' conveiniences like .45 cal casings for the primer. That might disqualify it from muzzleloader season in some states.

I also have a Shiloh Sharpes Military Rifle, Model 1863, that could out-shoot that BP Xpress. I have it fitted with a Tang Sight, and it shoots well at 800+ yards.

If I ever see anyone at the range with one of these, maybe I can talk them into a 'shoot-off', and we'll see if it can measure up to the real thing.

By the way, that Savage rifle that shoots smokeless powder.....I've out-shot everyone who has showed up with one, even with my Pennsylvania Rifle .....no matter what you have, it's still 85% the man, and not the machine.

Just my opinion.......

Just MY opinion......

To suggest that the average hunter can take 500+ yard shots with a ML rifle is irresponsible at a minimum. Most HUNTERS have trouble taking shots >300 yds. with high power centerfire rifles. Using specialized equipment and practicing at the distances you mention is a different game entirely. I can shoot down an armor plated chopper at 1200 meters with a .50 BMG, it's lethal to deer sized game at well over a mile. Does it mean I should take the shot? For that matter a .22 LR is considered lethal at extreme distances. Should we be shooting squirrels and rabbits at 200 yds with open sights with our favorite .22? It IS lethal.

As a hunter, I prefer a 100 yd shot with my Encore over your 1000 yd shot anyday. Regardless of what you shoot it with.
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Well then I guess I DID misunderstand your post. I thought you were suggesting average hunters can take 500+ yd shots while hunting with ML rifles. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Ml's like that take the fun out of ML hunting. wtf

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glockman55
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Crackshot wrote:
Ml's like that take the fun out of ML hunting. wtf

That's a matter of opinion. Just like compound bows, scoped rifles, carbon arrows, how many traditional long bow shooters still use cedar shafted arrows? It's what you like and want to use that makes it fun..

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Crackshot
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

Well ML's like that one take the challenge out of BP hunting. Yes, you still have one shot....but with the old ML's it was a hunt based on your skill's to make sure the gun would fire, and get the animal to present the shot. Now all you have to do is go and find the animal to shoot. No actual primitive riflemanship skill is needed. Hell any chimp can load a ML and pop a cartridge in the chamber for a sure fire BOOM.
Give that chimp a Flintlock and he will never get it working.
Hey man, Its an oppinion. Very Happy Shoot what you like.

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Gigmaster
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: The ultimate ML ? Reply with quote

oops


Last edited by Gigmaster on Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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