HuntingNut
HuntingNut
   Login or Register
HomeCommunity ForumsPhoto AlbumsRegister
     
 

User Info

Welcome Anonymous


Membership:
Latest: RichardZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 13126

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 226
BOT: 0
Total: 226
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Albums
02: Forums
03: Forums
04: Forums
05: Forums
06: Forums
07: Forums
08: Forums
09: Photo Albums
10: Forums
11: Forums
12: Forums
13: Forums
14: Forums
15: Forums
16: Forums
17: Forums
18: Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Forums
22: Forums
23: Home
24: Forums
25: Forums
26: Forums
27: Forums
28: Forums
29: Your Account
30: Forums
31: Your Account
32: Your Account
33: Photo Albums
34: Your Account
35: Forums
36: Forums
37: Forums
38: Home
39: Forums
40: Photo Albums
41: Your Account
42: Photo Albums
43: Forums
44: Home
45: Forums
46: Photo Albums
47: Forums
48: Forums
49: Forums
50: Forums
51: Forums
52: Forums
53: Forums
54: Forums
55: Forums
56: Forums
57: Forums
58: Forums
59: Your Account
60: Forums
61: Forums
62: Photo Albums
63: Your Account
64: Home
65: Forums
66: Forums
67: Your Account
68: Your Account
69: Photo Albums
70: Photo Albums
71: Home
72: Photo Albums
73: Forums
74: Home
75: Forums
76: Forums
77: Home
78: Home
79: Your Account
80: Your Account
81: Forums
82: Photo Albums
83: Forums
84: Forums
85: Forums
86: Forums
87: Home
88: Forums
89: Forums
90: Forums
91: Forums
92: Forums
93: Forums
94: Forums
95: Forums
96: Your Account
97: Forums
98: Photo Albums
99: Forums
100: Home
101: Forums
102: Forums
103: Forums
104: Forums
105: Forums
106: Home
107: Your Account
108: Home
109: Photo Albums
110: Photo Albums
111: Forums
112: Home
113: Forums
114: Home
115: Forums
116: Forums
117: Forums
118: Forums
119: Forums
120: Your Account
121: Your Account
122: Forums
123: Forums
124: Forums
125: Photo Albums
126: Forums
127: PointBlank Ballistics
128: Forums
129: Home
130: Forums
131: Photo Albums
132: Forums
133: Forums
134: Forums
135: Forums
136: Forums
137: Forums
138: Photo Albums
139: Your Account
140: Forums
141: Your Account
142: Photo Albums
143: Forums
144: Forums
145: Forums
146: Forums
147: Home
148: Forums
149: Home
150: Forums
151: Photo Albums
152: Forums
153: Forums
154: Forums
155: Forums
156: Photo Albums
157: Home
158: Forums
159: Home
160: Forums
161: Forums
162: Forums
163: Forums
164: Forums
165: Forums
166: Home
167: Forums
168: Forums
169: Forums
170: Forums
171: Home
172: Forums
173: Forums
174: Forums
175: Your Account
176: Your Account
177: Forums
178: Forums
179: Photo Albums
180: Forums
181: Your Account
182: Forums
183: Forums
184: Forums
185: Forums
186: Forums
187: Forums
188: Photo Albums
189: Home
190: Forums
191: Forums
192: Your Account
193: Your Account
194: Forums
195: Forums
196: Statistics
197: Forums
198: Forums
199: Forums
200: Forums
201: Forums
202: Forums
203: Forums
204: Photo Albums
205: Photo Albums
206: Forums
207: Forums
208: Forums
209: Home
210: Home
211: Your Account
212: Home
213: Photo Albums
214: Your Account
215: Forums
216: Forums
217: Photo Albums
218: Your Account
219: Forums
220: Your Account
221: Forums
222: Your Account
223: Your Account
224: Forums
225: Forums
226: Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
 

Coppermine Stats
Photo Albums
 Albums: 308
 Pictures: 2451
  · Views: 820725
  · Votes: 1316
  · Comments: 86
 

Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
204Shooter
Member
Member


Joined: Jan 28, 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Diana, TX

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

I originally posted this under the firearms form but decided it might be better here...

Last Friday I purchased a NEF/H&R Super Light Handi-Rifle in .243 Win. I now need to work up a load for it. I believe most .243 Win load data is based on a 22-24" barrel. My barrel length is 20". Has any one come across load data for a shorter barrel? My instincts tell me to pick a faster burning power for the shorter barrel. However, I have no experience in this area and would like input from the group. I also am interested in how accuracy might be affected by the shorter barrel. I expect a slight reduction in bullet speed but I hope the accuracy will not be affected. Have any of you come up against this problem?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Jack
Member
Member


Joined: Oct 19, 2005
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

The idea that a faster powder (for the same caliber) will work better in a shorter rifle barrel is a myth. Check the loading manuals and pick the powder that looks like the best choice, regardless of barrel length.
As to accuracy, barrel length has little to do with mechanical accuracy- most bench rest rifles that are the ultimate in accuracy use 20 inch barrels.
What a shorter barrel will often do, compared to a longer barrel, is give you lower muzzle velocity. But you already know that.
So, go ahead and work up a load using what looks like the best powder, and have fun shooting.
Back to top
View user's profile
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

+1 on what Jack described.

When the powder is ignited, the peak pressure occurs before the bullet strikes the lands. At that point, all the powder that can usefully be burned has been consumed. If there are traces of unburned powder, it is of little consequence and has no bearing on whether powder is of the proper burn rate.

The valid point about the WSM and WSSM cartridges was that the peak pressure would occur before the bullet began to move forward from the neck and, theoretically, offer more efficient and uniform pressure. Likewise the 6PPC. Now, the 5X35 Savage adds to the short/fat powder column and type of shoulder that supposedly reflects some of the primer energy for even better burn.

Let me stray a little further from the subject to add that this type of cartridge shape experimentation, with all the attendant claims, has been going on for a long time. It was the claim of Weatherby, Gibbs and Ackley, among others. The advent of inexpensive chronographs and trace pressure gauges (not so inexpensive) have given us tools that put the theories to test, some substantiated, others not. In the same manner, the issue of using the same proper powder regardless of barrel length has been verified.
Back to top
View user's profile
Morax
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Posts: 618
Location: Pittsburgh Pa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

ok but if i didnt see this i apologise, the accuracy only suffers or gets better at 18 inches, so if it is over 18 its no "real" matter of 20 inches or 24 inch also a faster or slower burning powder does a lot for accuracy with a fast burn it "cracks" spends its propusion and thats it. a slower burning powder will push and will continue to push the length of the barrel, i do have chronos of this for proof, working up loads for a .357 and a .44 you can lower the pressure, raise the fps and gain accuracy
Back to top
View user's profile
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Morax: my understanding is that it doesn't matter the barrel length. Period.

As an example, I have three firearms in 243 winchester, a 10" T/C, a 16" Compact and a 26" Ruger No1. They have been developed individually for load data, but, by comparison of results all use the same powder, when using the same bullet weight, which gives the best velocity in each of these firearms.
Back to top
View user's profile
Morax
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Posts: 618
Location: Pittsburgh Pa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

ok it accually does, the same powder at different weights for the correct burn time for said barrel length. the same powder charge for the 26 inch ruger, will more than likely dump unburnt powder out the end of the 10 inch t/c. thus you will not get a full burn and will not get full pressure or fps. if barrel length didnt matter then why are we loading down the snipers with long barreled rifles and not just tossing them a bunch of carbines? barrel length does matter when you are going the distance, also due to stabilizing the bullet as well, if its longer it has the chance to stabilize before being acted on by outside forces (wind) you take a .357 rifle and a .357 colt with a 8 inch barrel, you will get different pressure,different velocity, different accuracy out of both using the same cartridge
Back to top
View user's profile
K.W.
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Mar 19, 2007
Posts: 348
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

I will tell someting 22Horn Caliper. I have T/C Contender 10" bull barrel. When I shoot it with carbine stock and rifle scoup, it is moore accurate than Brno 110 24" barrel withn same loads, because barrel vibration. I must look off better load for Brno and maybe make its barrel to 20" long. K.W.
Back to top
View user's profile
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Morax: My understanding is that longer barrels give higher velocity, they don't stablize bullets better nor do they provide for better powder burn. The amount of powder that will be burned occurs as the bullet enters and passes the front of the lands and the resultant pressure continues to allow the bullet to accelerate as those gases expand. Powder doesn't continue to burn as the bullet travels down the barrel, except for the first few inches.

Longer barrels do not impart greater stability. Stability is a process of reaching the optimum spin rate which is determined by the velocity and twist rate. Regardless of barrel length once the correct spin rate is achieved, going faster isn't going to improve stablity. To the contrary, a bullet can spin too fast and cause structural problems leading to disintegration or accentuating any yaw in the bullet and degrade accuracy as a result. Too, the spin rate doesn't really slow down as the velocity of the bullet decreases. Spin rates remain reasonably constant.

You, however, have arrived at different conclusions. It would be nice if we had some "authority" on board to 'splain it all to us.
Back to top
View user's profile
Morax
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Dec 18, 2006
Posts: 618
Location: Pittsburgh Pa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

a bullet cant spin faster than the lands and groves, it can however be pushed through them. and what i am basing it on is info from the chronos sight seen and shot, and also from the basic fbi ballistic courses that teach the trajectory, velocity, stability of shot etc. so i donno what to tell ya big guy Very Happy wasnt trying to get into a peein contest, just stating what is taught and learned and all that fun stuff. its a known fact a longer barrel gives better stability, when you get a old kentucky rifle with slower speeds thats why they are a mile long, with newer powders etc, the barrel length shrank, it is a known fact of 18 is the break point.. anything longer dont really help, and anything shorter you got to play with the load for optimal burn and or speed to get the best of all worlds possable.
Back to top
View user's profile
Handloader
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 1032
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Morax: and that's what makes it all so interesting.

Onward
Back to top
View user's profile
PaulS
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Feb 18, 2006
Posts: 4330
Location: South-Eastern Washington - the State

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

Morax,
longer barrels give the shooter more stability not the bullet. If a bullet "slides" throueven 2" of a 1 in 10 twist it is too small in diameter to ever get hold of the rifling. The bullet is engraved in the rifling before it gets any speed up. The powder is all burnt up before a bullet travels more than a couple of inches and the same powders that give the highest velocities in a 26 in barrel will give the highest velocity in an 18 inch barrel. The best powder for the capacity of the cartridge and the weight of the bullet at a given pressure will be the same whether it is fired in a 30 inch barrel or a 10 inch barrel. Otherwise we would be using pistol powders in those 7mm-08 in Contenders instead of the same powders that we use in our rifles.
On the extreme end of things you can't put enough bullseye into a 30-06 to make it as fast in a five inch barrel as you can by using the normal charge of 4350. The bullet goes faster from a long barrel because the powder continues to heat the gasses until they expand enough to start cooling. The basics of physics and the tests that I have done over the last 33 years shows that all the tests that different folks have done are right. Even the NRA did a test that they published in the National Rifleman. They took a TC Contender with a 24 inch barrel and shot a wide range of powders through it. they used the same loads throughout the test as they cut two inches off that barrel at a time. They got it down to 6 inches and the powders that had the highest velocities always had the highest velocities from 24 inches down to six inches. The cartridges that they loaded for the test were the 30-06, 30-30 and the 357 magnum. Each barrel started at 24 inches and was cut two inches at a time. Each barrel length the same range of powders (specific to the cartridge) were used and the results from the chronograph were recorded. In the 357 H110 gave the highest velocity at all barrel lengths. In the 30-30it was much the same with the powder that gave the highest velocity at 24 inches kept right on giving the highest velocities all the way down to 6 inches. The '-06 was the same story. The thing is that there is a small range of powders that will fill the case while giving a near maximum pressure for the cartridge. Those are the powders that yield the highest speeds because they have the greatest mass at the highest allowable pressure to move the bullet through its acceleration. You have to use less of a faster burning powder so the mass that is pushing against the bullet is less even though it is at the same peak preasure - the pressure drops off sooner and the hot gasses are less dense than the slower powders. If you use too slow of a powder then it can't get hot enough to produce maximum pressure and the bullet speed drops from that "ideal" powder.

_________________
Paul
__________________
Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Vince
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 15704
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
The thing is that there is a small range of powders that will fill the case while giving a near maximum pressure for the cartridge. Those are the powders that yield the highest speeds because they have the greatest mass at the highest allowable pressure to move the bullet through its acceleration. You have to use less of a faster burning powder so the mass that is pushing against the bullet is less even though it is at the same peak preasure - the pressure drops off sooner and the hot gasses are less dense than the slower powders. If you use too slow of a powder then it can't get hot enough to produce maximum pressure and the bullet speed drops from that "ideal" powder.

WHA ????? HUH ????? :wtf: Shocked Shocked Confused

Laughing Laughing Laughing Razz

Cheers, Vince

_________________
Cheers, Vince Cheers

Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address MSN Messenger Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Bushmaster
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: Jun 12, 2005
Posts: 11390
Location: Ava, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

What Vince? You don't understand? What is there that you don't understand...Me neither....Must be good though. PaulS wrote it...That makes it right... Very Happy

_________________
I have one nerve left and yer standin' on it...

DEMOCRACY Two wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for lunch...
LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Back to top
View user's profile
bodyalter
Member
Member


Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Central Minnesota

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

A-men! they asked for an authority and they got one.

_________________
There are only 10 types of people in the world, Those who understand binary and those who don't
Back to top
View user's profile MSN Messenger
SAHUNTER
Rookie Member
Rookie Member


Joined: Feb 06, 2007
Posts: 6
Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win Reply with quote

While still off the subject from "Need help with load for a short barrel .243 Win", Morax,Handloader and PaulS what are your relevant opinions of the muzzle blast (flame) seen from some rifles that is visible at nigh or in the dark?
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index » Reloading Ammunition
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Valid CSS! Valid HTML 4.01!
Click to check if this page is realy HTML 4.01 compliant for speed :)

All logos and trademarks in this site are property of HuntingNut.com.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © 2011 by HuntingNut.com
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy

.: Upgraded to DragonFly 9.2 by *Dizfunkshunal* :.