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5,000 fps! well, not yet
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

A recent trade for a VSSF in 220 Swift has led me on a quest to get to 5,000fps. There are several cartridges capable of doing this and the Swift is one of them.

First, of course, one needs a light bullet weight. Very light. My choice was for the 35gr Berger. My opinion and forty years of working with the Swift leds me to Winchester brass. Stuffing said brass with H335 got me close to goal at 4,792 fps, however, some pressure signs were becoming apparent. VV offers some powders that may help me cross the 5M boundary safely and I await a shipment of 2lbs that should arrive tomorrow.

Accuracy was surprisingly good considering the bullet's rotational spin, with 5 shot groups running .685 MOA. I'm surprised the bullets didn't disintegrate on their way to the target.

To the question of "why?" there is no answer and none needed. But, should I try to justify my labors it would be to test the theory of hydrastatic shock as we near coyote hunting time.

In the interim I take some glee when a few gather at the bench to look at those chronograph numbers.

more to follow, if the goal is met
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

I would say, "Yes, by all means check it out" because it doesn't exist as part of the killing potential of a bullet. It makes a temporary wound that causes discomfort but it doesn't cut tissue, or break bones. It can temporarily stun the nervous system. Dr. Fackler is one of the foremost terminal ballisticians and he has researched bullet wound effects for 40+ years. Google his name and you will come up with a lot of infomation pro and con. He usually wins the discussions though.

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Paul S: in guiding elk hunters for eight years, one of the more remarkable shots was made with a 45-70, 405gr GC bullet. It was a frontal shot at 112 yards and completely transversed the bull's body. Shot from a No1 Ruger, velocity was quoted at being around 1,600 fps. I've witnessed many bull elk killed, but, none more effectively. The bull staggered and fell without moving more than a body's length.

Ironically, I am not a big fan of hyper velocity centerfire rounds in the big game arena and am persuaded that standard cartridges will do as good of a job when the proper bullets are used combined with good shot placement. My venture, however, has little to do with hunting and would only be of short lived value in praire dog towns. Or, maybe, on a few long range jackrabbits.

More, this attempt to break the 5M mark is simply an excercise done on its own merit. And, for pragmatic purposes, that merit is rather shallow. But, I'm having fun with it. Delayed by a day, its off to the range in the am.

BTW, have you decided on a good 357 Max load? Velocity? Opinion?

Board members: I am not sure why this thread posted twice.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Handloader, first I want to apologize for my jump and energetic use of words - I was out of line. I have seen what hydrostatic shock does to an animal when it survives the actual wound and that is one of my hot buttons but I know that you feel pretty much the same on an intellectual level. I hope you can get a bullet going 5K+ fps - its a feat that deserves an attempt. You've got 4800 fps now so keep going. I need a good day at the range to unwind and relax.
I have been too busy to do anything with the 357 Maximum since my last range session. I have a load that shows promise at 1" groups but my old stand by does better than that and has a higher velocity. I have more powder to go before I reach the listed maximum load (for the Speer bullet) and the bullet I am using (Hornady) leaves more powder space in the case. I probably won't take real advantage of that but it will keep pressures down. I do need to get to the range and play with it - I need to get out of my office and do anything. My tension is probably the reason I jumped on the topic of hydrostatic shock - I thank you for not jumping back - you are a good man and I would like to call you friend. Thanks for allowing the outburst - I think I'll go for a walk.
Best wishes to you.

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Vince
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

PaulS, you humble me with your humility. With your attitude I am sure that anyone would be proud to call you friend.

Handloader.....I have a mate here in Australia who has done some development work on a 22.280 and I believe he has so far reached 4800-4900 fps. I haven't seen him for a little while, but next time I do I will get some of his load data off him (if he'll part with it) and post it for you. One thing he found though is that the throat erosion on his MAB barrel was horrendous.

Good luck on your mission to "break the sound barrier". There is no doubt in my mind that you will achieve 5000+ fps...just don't do yourself or your rifle a mischief in the process mate.

Cheers, Vince

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

PaulS: gee, if you really want penitence you can buy the first two rounds. Your initial comments, however, parallel my own and with no umbrage on my part.

Vince: today's few hours at the range saw regressive results that I attribute to maxing the components I am using. As you probably are aware, when chronographing rounds one observes no velocity gain with increased powder charges, the max potential of that powder has been exceeded. Such was the case.

I'll take a cautious approach with Vita powder when it arrives and see if I can push the envelope a bit further.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Handloader,
The walk, and a day out with my wife has done wonders for my attitude.
Is there something wrong with H380 powder? or H414? they are slower powders and the case should have enough volume for the H380 if you have run more powder than is of value with H335. It could be too slow for the light bullet but at the bore saturation point it might work...
What are your thoughts?

If I ever get to your part of the world the first two rounds would be on me. If you get into my part of the world you will probably want something warm to drink - do you like rum? I haven't been drinking any alcohol for the past year or more because of the back problems and the pain meds they have me on. It's getting better but it is slow progress.

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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
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NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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Al_Sohlstrom
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Hi

One of the reasons that artillery rounds can attain such amazing velocety is that they can, "tune," the pressure all along the length of the barrel of the weapon by using different types of propellant:


As most small arms powder is degressive burning, the speed of burning becomes critical to high-pressure/high speed loadings.

You might be able to swing this with a dulpex or triplex load. (the .454 Casul, for instance, uses... or USED TO use - I haven't kept up... a compressed triplex load.)

Does anyone have any information on duplexing or triplexing powders? I know that one of the FIRST admonitions on the cans is, "DO NOT MIX POWDERS...".

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

In the early years of handloading there was a significant amount of experimentation. Components were less plentiful, however, there were always those that sought higher velocities or increased accuracy and would use what they had at hand, develop something new, or experiment, and they experimented a lot. Shoulder angles were debated endlessly, for example, and there was always something new -- venturi shoulders, radius shoulders, Ackley shoulders. Duplex and triplex loads were also tried.

Today we have the advantage of much better loading tools, sophisticated measuring devices for velocity and pressure, yet, most handloaders tend not to stray into the grey areas of experimentation. Rather, they develop their loads within SAAMI standards and from the latest book data. In fact, this has probably made handloading and reloading of cartridges much safer. The idea of safe reloading is so inculcated into the mentality and mindset of today's shooters that any form of experimentation is viewed as being a risky subject. And, it can be.

Should we delve into the grey areas of experimentation, we have lots more to work with than our forefathers. And we have safer rifles to boot. Specific to duplex loads, however, I doubt there is much to be gained and part of that is related to knowing the principles of powder ignition, something those early experimenters only guessed at. And, we have magnum primers.

If we read the works of Ackley, Sharpe, Newton and others, the general thought was that powder burned progressively from the primer forward. With larger capacity cases, duplex loading was intended to get a hotter and more uniform burn of the slower burning powder on top of the small amount of faster burning powder. To further this idea, some even tried to braze a small copper tube inside the case on top of the primer flash hole, thus directing the primer ignition forward of the powder charge with the intent of a more complete burn. But, we now know that powder doesn't burn from the base forward, rather it burns simultanteously in all directions throughout the case upon ignition. And, out the window goes the case for duplex. In fact, any advantage of duplex or triplex came solely from increased pressures when those tests were repeated under controlled and measured conditions.

There are other examples of new tech vs old technique that demonstrate how much we have learned. Some myths die hard, however. Some still believe muzzle flash is unburned powder, some still believe that fast powders should be used in shorter barrels, etc. Despite all this, there is always a case to be made for experimentation and expanding the envelope in a precise and calculated manner. You just gotta know what your doing.

Onward.
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Handloader
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
Handloader,
Is there something wrong with H380 powder? or H414? they are slower powders and the case should have enough volume for the H380 if you have run more powder than is of value with H335. It could be too slow for the light bullet but at the bore saturation point it might work...
What are your thoughts?

PaulS: H414 and H380 are main powders for 55 grainers in the Swift. I have this thing about Swifts and have ended up with a few of them and they all thrive of these two powders. They are too slow for the 35 grainers and H335 is showing pressure signs prematurely (that is before I get to my goal). Most 5M+ loads in 22 centerfire take advantage of VitaVuori powders and mine arrived today.

Still, we are approaching a critical pressure level and I am attaching a friend's piezo gauge to the rifle tonight to monitor pressures in future range sessions. I've used it before and was impressed by how quickly pressure can spike when approaching higher levels. So, really, the challenge is to achieve a 5M reading within safe pressure levels and "safe pressure levels" is a subject of its own.

---------------------------------

If I ever get to your part of the world the first two rounds would be on me. If you get into my part of the world you will probably want something warm to drink - do you like rum? I haven't been drinking any alcohol for the past year or more because of the back problems and the pain meds they have me on. It's getting better but it is slow progress.

PaulS: we live among cactus and drink tequila. Tequila comes in a huge range of quality, but, the best is kept in Mexico. Orendain and some Herraduras are some great tequilas and most likely would be better for back pain than meds. At least, that is my experience. So, I'll bring a bottle with me if we ever find time to meet.

I do a lot of motorcycling and some of my buddies are in the Seattle area. We meet once in awhile in Lewiston to blast over to Missoula, down to Stanley and, often, up to Spokane. So, I do get around your region from time to time. It is a small world.
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POP!!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Good luck to you and let us know!

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Howdy POP!

I got ahold of a piezo strain gauge, glued the leads to the receiver and barrel and tried some VV135 with the 35gr Bergers. The strain gauge and case head expansion began giving warning signs that pressure was approaching a danger point. 68,750psi and CHE of .0005, my absolute max. The chronograph clocked 4,956fps, 5 shots, 100yds, SD 8 fps. Primers were flattening and bolt lift was hard. Enough.

More testing with some other components may boost the velocity by the 44fps to get to 5,000fps, or, perhaps, I simply need to get a 28" barrel. But, I haven't found other components (bullets or powder) that warrant added testing yet. Discussions with some advanced experimenters may suggest other paths.

FYI: SDs declined with added pressure with most powders tried.

Further advances will be posted, but, it may be awhile.
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:21 am    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

I have a couple bottles of "Cuzano Rojo" mezcal, is it any good? I was given them as a gift but they are both unopened as of now. It is getting colder here, we are back in the 60's and the temps are bouncing. By this time next month we will have daytime highs in the high 40's and low 50's.
Gotta love having all four seasons.

On that case of 5000 fps, are you filling the case with powder yet? If not just try the next slower powder until you get one that will fill the case and give you close to maximum pressure. Keep working on it. you are so close!

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GroovyJack
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

Here here Hawgs and Seattle !!!
I hate Seattle , ole lady is from there ..
Finally I see I am not the only one who knows what muzzle flash isnt !!!
Pop , thought you got lost dood !!

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Handloader
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 5,000 fps! well, not yet Reply with quote

PaulS wrote:
I have a couple bottles of "Cuzano Rojo" mezcal, is it any good? I was given them as a gift but they are both unopened as of now. It is getting colder here, we are back in the 60's and the temps are bouncing. By this time next month we will have daytime highs in the high 40's and low 50's.
Gotta love having all four seasons.

On that case of 5000 fps, are you filling the case with powder yet? If not just try the next slower powder until you get one that will fill the case and give you close to maximum pressure. Keep working on it. you are so close!

Hi PaulS

Gusano Rojo (Red Worm) will delight the heart of mescal drinkers if the worm is real. That little worm has been eating the mescal cactus and has concentrated amounts, although small, of mescaline in its ugly little body. By the time the bottle has been consumed, usually a bout between two drinkers, that worm doesn't look too bad. The winner gets the worm and the "visions" that come in the dark of night when mescal and howling coyotes and full moons collide. Or, ahem, so I have heard.

The Arizona desert, too, has four seasons. Spring and Fall, however, last about two days and barely seperate Winter from Summer.

The Swift cases have been digesting slightly compressed loads. Common direction would be to move to the next fastest powder in the Burn Rate Chart, yet, pressures are at the max safe levels now. As you are probably aware, there are many powders that aren't available to the public, being used primarily by military. And, that is one possible step for me to see if there is an unlisted powder with the same burn rate as the VV I have been using that may retard peak pressure ever so slightly.

The one bit of information I seek is research or technical papers that can predict the physical point within the cartridge/neck/throat where peak pressure occurs. Comparing powders' pressure profile may enable a more suitable choice of powder. Or, conversely, defining where one wants the peak pressure to occur may identify the powder with that profile.

All for a measly 44 fps more. Truly, it may be easier to get a 28" barrel or, how about this, try a 224 barrel with a gain twist! I can't even imagine how one would isolate the proper load for gain twist at max pressures! But, then, that is the challenge, isn't it? Going where one hasn't gone before . . .
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