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Darwin award at the range today
Discussions related to Guns and Firearms
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Deer Sniper
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

I have seen a lot of guns ruined by use of their load data, and they take no responsibility for it!

Busted stocks, forends, bulged barrels, split barrels, etc., from using their published data, knowing full well that the vast majority of their loads have NOT been pressure tested!

Me personally, I limit MY loads, whether steel or lead, buffered, magnum hunting or target loads, to a maximum pressure reading of 10,500 psi in MY 12 ga. shotguns. So neither me nor my guns get abused unnecessarily.

I enjoy shooting shotguns and when things get over pressured, nothing about it is any longer fun or safe. And for a so called respected company like BPI to flat out lie to their customers, just so they can make a buck selling reloading components with (some) unsafe data, I will no longer support a place like that!

Rant mode off!
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dhc4ever
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

How do they get away with that in the land of feral litigation and money grubbing lawyers?
You also have to question the cdf (Vince will translate this one on request) factor and moral compass of those publishing loads that dangerous.
Maybe the lunitics are running the asylum.

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Dont do anything you wont like explaining to the paramedics..............
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

When reloading it is difficult to prove the data is at fault, you properly used the data, and there were no other variables that could raise pressures.
When were your scales last calibrated?
Do you have proof that you didn't over/under charge the case?
Did you use all the same components specified in the data?
Have you ever exceeded recommended loads before? Do you still do so?
Were there any obstructions in the bore?
Was the round properly crimped?
What were the weather conditions?
Was the ammo properly stored and transported?
And the question would continue. Can you mke a group of jurors believe you over the "ballistician" that the company provides?
Even reloaders would be difficult to convince but your jury will be house wives and grandparents who think you are irresponsible just because you use a gun.

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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Deer Sniper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Since I do go to court over issues such as this, since I am a court appointed Ballistics Expert in the areas of rifles, handguns and shotguns, I look forward to things like this because of the STUPID people out there!

On another note, look at Remingtons Hyper-Sonic factory loaded steel shot loads! I have several 5 gallon buckets full of busted stocks, forends and barrels that have been destroyed beyond use, by the use of those particular factory steel shot loads! I have been contacted by no less than half a dozen attorneys in as many states, because of those Hyper-Sonic loads.

I have ran those factory loads in my pressure trace test barrels, and pressures have been recorded that we'll exceed the s.a.a.m.i. guidelines. Those loads are STILL ON THE MARKET and every year, I get in stocks, forends and barrels that have been destroyed by using these loads! Remington is well aware of all these things, but refuses to pull anmo, send out potential warnings, or do anything at all to warn the public of potential issues.

At least for me and those around me - NO ONE uses nor will ever use load data from BPI, and NO ONE will ever use Remington Hyper-Sonic steel shot loads! Our hands have been washed from both!
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DallanC
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Ok so here's a question for the "hive mind"

I have reloading manuals from 1980s that have a 10-15% difference in max powder for the 7STW loads (a very hot round already), compared to todays modern manuals.

The question is, why the difference. I contacted Hodgdon once about it and they were adamant that the power hadn't changed in that time, I asked if the "safe" load data in those manuals were still safe or was that published data actually over pressure? They hemmed and hawed of course, not wanting to admit putting anything in print that was dangerous.

So would you use older, published load data that has since been revised to lower levels? Or is this just a general safety move being scared of potential lawsuits in todays litigious society?

Cuz... those old published loads shoot wonderfully, no pressure signs. But those are over max load with the same MFGs modern manuals.


-DallanC
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Deer Sniper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

From my own personal experience and nothing else!

Most "good" reloading manuals, ie., SPEER, Nosler, Hornady, Sierra, Lyman and maybe a few others, they all provide a GOOD STARTING POINT for each of the cartridges that they have listed, but "I" NEVER look to these sources to tell me what the maximum or safe maximum load is for MY GUNS! Now, having said that, no one but ME is responsible for what goes in my guns! If I blow up a gun and lose an eye or an arm or anything else, I am the only one to blame.

I get a recommended "starting load" from these manuals, but I let each and every gun dictate what it's safe maximum load is.

I have had guns that literally maxed out with starting loads, and I had to go well below book listed starting loads, just so I could shoot the gun. And quite the opposite, I have had guns that I could load as much as 15 to 20 grains of powder over the maximum book listed loads, and still see absolutely no signs of excessive pressures!

Powder composition DOES change!

Primers DO change!

There are MANY DIFFERENCES in both custom and factory chambers, differences in metallurgy, differences in headspace, differences in throat length, bore and groove diameter, etc., etc., etc..

Heed the best reloading warning of all time -

START LOW AND WORK YOUR LOADS UP SLOWELY, SAFELY AND CAREFULLY, WATCHING FOR ANY AND ALL SIGNS OF PRESSURE...

Like most things in life, it all comes down to plain ol' common sense!

And for a new reloader, but a new reloading manual, read it cover to cover and study it. Pick an exact load, don't deviate from it in any way whatsoever, start low and have fun learning what you and your gun are capable of. If you feel the need to stretch the distance, work your loads up slowly and carefully, and have fun. Even find someone who has been safely loading for years, and ask questions. Learn all you can and ask lots of questions. Call the bullet manufacturers and talk to them. They shoot every day and can provide a wealth of information.

Any questions I can help with, just ask! I have been reloading for just over 50 years now and have loaded and shot literally millions of rounds of ammo, and I am still learning!
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

All components can change. The two that make the most difference in my short reloading history are cases and bullets. Powders vary from lot to lot but they stay more or less within certain limits high to low. Primers use different mixtures at differing strengths but make little difference in pressure and velocity as long as you stay with one or two brands. Even going from standard primers to magnum primers in a load the biggest difference I have noticed is in standard deviation.
I am not new to reloading but like any serious reloader I am learning. I have probably learned more in the last 10 years than I had in the 29 years before that.

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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slimjim
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Deer Sniper wrote:
I have had guns that I could load as much as 15 to 20 grains of powder over the maximum book listed loads, and still see absolutely no signs of excessive pressures!

1.5 to 2.0 grains?

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Oooops....

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LIBERTY A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
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Deer Sniper
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

slimjim wrote:
Deer Sniper wrote:
I have had guns that I could load as much as 15 to 20 grains of powder over the maximum book listed loads, and still see absolutely no signs of excessive pressures!

1.5 to 2.0 grains?

That was not a misprint. I literally meant 15 to 20 grains!

One gun was a factory Remington 700 in 243 Winchester. I "safely" loaded 15 grains above Sierra's maximum listed load in their reloading manual, shooting their 60 gr. Hollow Point.

Another gun was a TCR-87 in 7mm-08 and using Hornady's 100 gr. Hollow Point, I was able to safely go 18 grains above their book listed load.

Yet another gun was a Remington 788 in 243 Winchester that I safely went 20 grains over the max listed load, and again, with no pressure signs whatsoever!

This was all 30 to 40 years ago, and I will have to say without hesitation, there is no way in the world I would ever do this now! Back then, it was all about SPEED!

Then I came to realize that all the speed in the world will do you absolutely no good if you cannot hit your target!

Now days though, every rifle that I own and shoot, will shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards from the bench on a bad day - at a much more mundane velocity level.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Some years ago I attempted to reach that magical elusive 4000fps speed using 55gn projectiles in my .243 Weatherby. I got to the mid high 3k’s and didn’t see any pressure signs, but commonsense stepped in before I reached either pressure or 4000fps.

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
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Deer Sniper
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Hey Vince,

shooting that Remington with the Sierra 60 gr. Hollow Point, I managed 4,100 fps. out of it, and at 200 yards it never would make a "bullet hole" through a piece of cardboard! It would blow a ragged hole big enough to stick your pinky through, and it had a gray dust around the hole about 2 inches in diameter. I shot a crow with that load at around 150 yards, and the biggest piece of crow found wouldn't even cover a fingernail! That bird literally discenegrated when that 60 gr. bullet made contact.

The FASTEST cartridge that I ever had anything to do with, a rifle I built for a customer years ago, was a 6mm-284 with a 36" barrel and a 1-15" twist rate. We were able to push custom 55 gr. bullets to 5,062 fps. (not a misprint). That gun was only shot in 2 shot groups, and it managed 100 rounds before having 4" cut off the breech end and rechambered, put 1 1/2" off the muzzle. Accuracy was restored, but the customer could not stay away from those screaming loads, and if I'm not mistaking, it lasted for about 80 more rounds. We managed to shoot several crows with that gun, and total and complete discinigration was the name of the game.

I have never built anything that fast since. 4,200 to 4,400 fps. is the fastest I have seen in quite a long while, and those were fast stepping .17 caliber cartridges.
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Vince
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

WOW...those speeds are insane mate...over 5000fps is unimaginable to me. I’m surprised the projectiles didn’t “grenade” and disappear in a cloud of grey dust as soon as they cleared the barrel. They must have been spinning up around 250K-300K.

A big part of the reason I stopped pushing for speed is the exact reason you show in your blurb mate...barrel life...I can’t afford to re-barrel after 1K rounds let alone only 80. With the number of rounds 8 get to put through my .243 I fully expect my barrel to last my lifetime, after which it’s no longer my problem.

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Illegitimi non carborundum
(Never let the bastards grind you down)

Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God.

"Nulla Si Fa Senza Volonta."
(Without Commitment, Nothing Gets Done)
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PaulS
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

I missed going through "the velocity is king" stage in reloading.
I was always interested in small groups and not high velocity.
The one exception was shooting hunter's pistol silhouette with my 357. I needed a certain velocity to avoid sight adjustments on the range from 25 to 100 yards. It turned out that I got that velocity and accuracy below the maximum listed load, It is too high a load for the Smiths and Colts but it hasn't hurt my gun over the last 45+ years.

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Paul
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Speer, Lyman, Hodgdon, Sierra, and Hornady = reliable loading data
So and So's pages on the internet = NOT reliable loading data
Always check data against manuals
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads
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Deer Sniper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Darwin award at the range today Reply with quote

Vince,

at that time, there were NO factory produced bullets that could stand up to that kind of velocity, which is why my customer had to go with custom bullets that could handle the pressure and velocity of those loads.

Now days though, I go with cartridges like the 30-30 Ackley Improved, 7X30 Waters and my Armadillo series of cartridges that are based off of the 30-30 case. Great accuracy and long barrel life, and that suits me just fine.
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