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Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull
Discussion regarding the reloading of ammunition and tuning of loads for accuracy
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

Sparkie wrote:
Questions;

1 Are you using the expander die?

2 What is the inside diameter of the case after expansion?

3 Are these cases once fired?

4 Is the powder charge compressed?

5 Does the small bulge I see go all the way a round the case or only on one side?

Normally the more times the brass has been fired the more work hardened it becomes. The brass may need to be annealed.

If the bulge is only on one side the bullet is not going in the case straight.

From what I can see from the pictures it does not look like the case has enough bell from the expander die, after expansion the bullet should slide into the case .010 - 012 it looks like your expander is not properly set. You should be able to see a bell in the case mouth.

Need the ID of the case mouth included in the pics.

Hope this helps some...


Sparkle,

1. I’m using the RCBS expander die. According to RCBS, when using jacketed bullets, adjust the expander until the bullets “snap” in to the case, which mine do.

2. ID of the cases is as follows
Hornady sizer .4505
RCBS sizer. .4465

3. These are all new cases

4. I’m loading minimum charges since this a new adventure for me

5. The bulge is more prominent on one side in most cases. I believe this to be due do using my RCBS turret press, which has approximately .010 of play in the turret.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
Hunterjoe21...The differences in the various cases is so slight that I'm not sure you have a problem. Do you have a problem firing any of these?

Could you be gettin' just a bit anal? Just askin'.

Very nice photos though.

Bushmaster,

I have not yet fired any of these loads. I’m still in the “learning” process as it pertains to handgun ammo, which is the reason for all my dumb questions.

I read somewhere that neck tension is more important than bullet crimp when developing accurate loads in a heavy recoiling handgun. Thus the reason for all the inquiries.

I prefer to call it “ Paying Attention To Detail” rather than anal...although my wife might agree with your assessment

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

Aah...Don't feel bad. I have a friend that I shoot with that calls me anal about my reloads. Laughing

Compared to rifle case loading hand gun reloads just don't look the same. Case mouths show the bullet expansion where rifle case mouths don't. As long as the expansion is equal all around the case all is good. You will find that a few thousands of an inch is somewhat normal from case to case. The true test of hand gun ammunition is the down range target and the holes are that you put into it.

For normal testing I bench rest at 25 yards. For self defense I test at 21 feet (no bench rest). At both 25 yards bench resting and at 21 feet two handed I want to see all holes inside a 3" dot.

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Sparkie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

When an error in process can cause removal of body parts (fingers, eyes, head or others) a little anal is not a bad idea.
I would suggest either belling or chamfering case mouth a small amount it will make loading much easier. XTP bullets tend to be harder then other brands, I have found most of my .44 and .45 with XTP's shoot better with a heavier crimp vs the type of neck tension your talking about.
I use a lot of XTP bullets from 9mm to .45 and a heavier crimp is the trick. Just neck tension will not keep bullets from moving in a heavy recoil weapon. Ever heard the cylinder locked because a bullet moved forward and kept the cylinder from rotating. I have had this happen it is not a fun time, when in a situation that is critical you do not want this to happen. But maybe you do not have big a$$ bears trying to eat you where your located.
I fired the .454 Casull in the Freedom Arms and it can have a lot of recoil with heavy loads.
At .4505 your cases are shaving the bullets some. Elvis is right turning the round does help, Bushy is also right pistol bullets are not rifle bullets they do not load or look the same. Neck tension on rifle and pistol get closer on heavy magnum loads tho both require a heavy crimp to keep the bullets in place during recoil.
If you are using Starline brass it tends to be a little stiffer then others but all brass is not created the same some is softer some is harder just depends on the manufacturer.
Even a standard non turret press will show a bulge at times depends on the concentricty of the case and or bullet nothing in this world is perfect.
Do not go to light on your loads, to light a load can be just as dangerous as to heavy a load. I saw a model 29 Smith & Wesson blow the cylinder to bits with to small a charge that was to light.
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Elvis
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

have you tried a different micrometer?????
maybe better to "loose" it and just use the eyetrometer for a batch and go shoot them and see.......
might be a bit like chronographs...a wise man once said "many a great load has been ruined by a chrony" eg if it aint broke dont try and fix it..... if load is accurate and nice to shoot DONT change it reguardless of what the numbers say.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

I have 25 pieces of .45 colt that have been loaded with the XTP Mag bullets. Hornady lists 17.9 grains of Accurate #9 is a starting point in their newest book yielding 1200 fps in their testing (10” T/C barrel). I loaded each of these with 18 grains of powder, understanding that I won’t get close to their MV with a 2.5” barrel.

Should I start with more powder in my first attempts? My plan is to start “low” with 45 Colt, work my way up until I find a load I am happy with, then move up to the Casull. This will allow me to get familiar with the gun, get plenty of practice with it, and slowly increase the power/recoil.

I have not yet crimped the bullets, not being sure if I had done everything correctly, so I can easily dissemble them, reclaim the powder and start over.

I do have an order on it’s way from Midway with Starline brass (both Colt and Casull), so I might wait until I get it and try again. Also included with that order is the Lee FCD.

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

Elvis wrote:
have you tried a different micrometer?????
maybe better to "loose" it and just use the eyetrometer for a batch and go shoot them and see.......
might be a bit like chronographs...a wise man once said "many a great load has been ruined by a chrony" eg if it aint broke dont try and fix it..... if load is accurate and nice to shoot DONT change it reguardless of what the numbers say.

Kinda what I was thinking Elvis. I’m obviously overthinking things, but I really kinda like having 2 hands.

I’m still waiting for a real “break” in the weather, since I don’t have access to an indoor range that will allow handloads. Hopefully in the next couple weeks...

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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

hunterjoe21 wrote:
Sparkie wrote:
Questions;

1 Are you using the expander die?

2 What is the inside diameter of the case after expansion?

3 Are these cases once fired?

4 Is the powder charge compressed?

5 Does the small bulge I see go all the way a round the case or only on one side?

Normally the more times the brass has been fired the more work hardened it becomes. The brass may need to be annealed.

If the bulge is only on one side the bullet is not going in the case straight.

From what I can see from the pictures it does not look like the case has enough bell from the expander die, after expansion the bullet should slide into the case .010 - 012 it looks like your expander is not properly set. You should be able to see a bell in the case mouth.

Need the ID of the case mouth included in the pics.

Hope this helps some...


Sparkle,

1. I’m using the RCBS expander die. According to RCBS, when using jacketed bullets, adjust the expander until the bullets “snap” in to the case, which mine do.

2. ID of the cases is as follows
Hornady sizer .4505
RCBS sizer. .4465

3. These are all new cases

4. I’m loading minimum charges since this a new adventure for me

5. The bulge is more prominent on one side in most cases. I believe this to be due do using my RCBS turret press, which has approximately .010 of play in the turret.


Correction

ID of EXPANDED brass (454 Casull in the RCBS sizer and RCBS expander) is .458

I originally measured the ID of SIZED only brass

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Sparkie
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

As long as you start with the minimum book value your ok, .458 is good too.
Like I said before all brass is not created equal, even batch to batch runs can load different. Sounds like your good to go.

I do not know if you realize that there are different load lists for the .45 Colt. There are listings for standard .45 Colt (called cowboy loads) that are SAAMI rated at 14,000 psi MAX, do not use your loads in any standard 45 Colt weapon, this includes the New Model Ruger Vaquero. They would be ok in a original Vaquero. This can be a bit confusing at times, the SAAMI rating for the 454 is 65,000 psi.
.45 Colt loads for the Thompson Contender are ok for your weapon,
normally all loads listed for non-standard 45's come with a warning about not using the loads in any Colt standard revolver. Notice I say normally some times they don't.

Good Luck with your new loads.
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hunterjoe21
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

Bushmaster wrote:
So we know what I meant when I said "fluted". You will notice the four cuts in the crimping part of the die.

I got mine today and it doesn’t look like that.

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Bushmaster
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Loading for .45 Colt/.454 Casull Reply with quote

You are correct...My .38 Special FCD is not the same as I pictured. That was for .308 rifle.

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